topic Re: Buying a new computer advice in Tech Outpost

Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 11:50:14 GMT

I am looking forward to buying a new Desktop computer that costs aroudnd £500 to £700. I want a PC that is fairly powerful and able to handle Photoshop. No particular preferance for branding (must be "famous" brand like HP, etc) or processor manufacturer (AMD or Intel is OK). Any advice?

Re: Buying a new computer advice

bleeper24 — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:19:40 GMT

Hi mikedov

There are many points to take into consideration when buying a new desktop or laptop....Seeing as you have preference for a Desktop model , and seeing as your budget range is quoted in GBP ...I recommend you get hold of a reputable PC magazine such as PC Advisor..Computer Shopper and check out the Ads from various builders such as Palicomp and PowerC etc;

The big brand names are not always the best buys I can assure you...HP is withdrawing from the hardware side of their operations and there well may be some bargains to be had ..but you must "factor in " the availability of certain parts that could be required in future for upgrades etc .

The big names sometimes use specific components that are available only from them , and this can in some cases lead to expensive repairs/ upgrades etc . Not always the case ...but worth bearing in mind !

The system builders such as Palicomp ...Powerc in the U/K offer a range of models ...all of which can be customized at point of order /sale .

Here you can stipulate a better Processor..more RAM ...bettter Hard Drive and Graphics card specs .These companies automatically check that all components are compatible and work in harmony before building them and shipping to the consumer .

Many models offered by some suppliers are "pegged " at various price brackets.....Some have good processor specs and decent memory configuration ...but are sometimes married to a very poor hard drive spec with low spin speeds and data transfer rates , which in effect "hobbles " the decent specced parts of the build .

You could easily buy a model that could be improved dramatically by a bit of judicious "shopping around " and its possible to increase a PC's capabilities by a huge performance margin for a minimal price increase if you just know where to shop !

Everyones needs are different ..so if you can advise what your main PC usage consists of ..It will be easier to offer more specific advice ...If you want to play reasonably new releases of software games..Then the Graphics capability of your chosen model will be paramount...

some of the Graphics processors included in some models are a joke :smileywink:

A basic idea of your usage of yoyr PC will help a lot ..so post us an update of what your usage preferences are and we'll take it from there !

Re: Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:12:03 GMT

I mostly use the computer for my schoolwork (Microsoft Word) and browsing the web. However, I would like a PC that can easily support watching html5 video with hardware acceleration of IE9. Also do some occasional Photo editing with Photoshop and video editing with Windows Live Movie Editor so should be fairly powerful. Core i7 preferable. Harddrive space not a big deal and 500 gb should be enough. Prefer a powerful PC. Wireless card is a must. So low storage space, high power.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

huwyngr — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 23:27:14 GMT

bleeper,

<< ...HP is withdrawing from the hardware side of their operations and there well may be some bargains to be had ..but you must "factor in " the availability of certain parts that could be required in future for upgrades etc . >>

They fired the CEO who released that information and have changed their mind so HP should be continuing with PCs.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

huwyngr — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 23:48:13 GMT

I've been building my own for several years now and you might be surprised how easy it is if you get advice on selecting components and it certainly helps you learn about computers!

I don't share all of Bleeper's feelings about the big names and using "local firms" partly perhaps because my first real PC, after graduating from a Tandy Model 2000 was built by a small firm in the UK, not far from where I lived and it came with a lifetime warranty ..... the only problem was that the company went bankrupt between my ordering and my getting it.

I did manage to talk my way into their building and find it and got the credit card company to refund me part of the charge for not having a warranty!

If you go for a name brand then I would go for HP or for Lenovo if only for the quality of their online support in terms of downloads, manuals and so on (not many companies allow you to download the field service manuals used for replaceable components and have illustrated web pages or videos on how to do it!

And with the way PCs are discounted these days (at least here in the USA where I live now) it is hard to beat the prices.

For what you describe you don't need the top level CPU and I prefer AMD CPUs if only for the cost differential. They may benchmark a little slower than the fastest INTEL but most users would not notice.

I would go for a minimum of 4GB of RAM and preferably for 8GB since you are pretty certain to be getting Windows 7 in 64 bit version these day and get it when you buy the PC since the manufacturers often fill the slots and you have to remove perfectly good RAM to put in the larger strips.

500GB for your hard drive is absolutely too small these days and even more so if you are going to do any imaging / video work.

If it works out within your budget get 2 x 1TB drives fitted inside the case and use the second drive for backing up your personal files and work in progress to since the speed of data transfer will be faster with an internal drive than with most external plugged in drives. Don't go for one 2TB drive partitioned into two logical drives since when the hard drive fails (and it is when and not if) you will lose your backups!

If you can afford it add an external 1TB or 2TB drive ideally connected by eSATA or by USB 3 to get the advantage of their fast data handling -- but if it's USB 3 you need it at both ends -- on the PC and on the external hard drive.

I've used WIndows Live Movie Maker and I was impressed with it finding it much easier to use than the Nero 8 I have installed also -- with the WLMM I could locate easily to a single frame to cut out a sequence I wanted to have on a disk on its own.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

delphinium — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 04:08:29 GMT

Check the case provided by the supplier as well. I was able to order a stock machine and upgrade the memory and video as well as choose the case. The case is more imporatant than a person might think in that how the case is designed greatly affects efficient cooling. I had the drives, I use two as well, separated slightly to allow better cooling, as well as upgraded the fan size. You want the air to flow evenly past the interior hardware components.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

bleeper24 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 07:41:30 GMT

Hi mekedov

I recently wrote

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Thanks to Hugh firstly......for updating me on the fact that HP are still maintaining the hardware area of operations ...I wasn't aware that they had "changed their minds " etc;Thanks Hugh ....HP build quality has always been of a very high standard with good support .

I can assure you I am not against "big branded names " ...I was merely suggesting you consider some of the alternatives during your search for your new desktop .

I totally agree with Hugh that some small firms are not always the best option...but the two companies I mentioned are often very well represented in the best buy ratings in the reviews in the U/K .

The price range that you have suggested , and the uses that you will put your desktop to with regard to "power " being a main criteria , means that you will be nearer the "top end " of your budget quote in order to reach the component level you prefer . Do not reject AMD processors from your choice of processor by the way . I always prefer Intel for laptops ...but all my desktop builds are AMD !

I did not intend to make your search for advice more complex by stating my views on "big brand names " ..I simply wanted you to be aware that there are some excellent alternatives available :smileywink:...Regards.......Ed

Re: Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:04:29 GMT

I currently have a 500 gb harddrive, which I barely fill up! Therefore, I thought about skimping on the storage to save money to upgrade the processor. Also, regarding AMD, what are their top processor classes at the moment? Also, regarding ATI graphic cards, how are they ranked? According to model number? Also which is more important, graphic card memory or graphic card speed?

Re: Buying a new computer advice

bleeper24 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:01:59 GMT

Hi again mikedov

You replied-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Thanks for the added info ...I do not know your level of knowlege regarding PC components etc; so forgive me if I state any facts you may already be aware of :smileywink:

As technology moves very fast in this field ...it isn't easy to give "cutting edge" details of all the permutations , but heres a few points that may answer some of your queries.These are just a guide to show how varied the series numbers and model numbers are not always a case of " higher numbers are better "

In the processor area of operations ..the Intel Sandy Bridge i.3 .i5 and i7 's are a force to be reckoned with but the i.7 choice you initially stated as a favourite , will come at an increased cost obviously ......

If you go for an "off the shelf " branded desktop model...the manufacturers choice of motherboard will define which processor slot type is on the board they use , and this defines the type of processor and its' price! I mention this because the socket type numbering , doesn't mean that the "higher the number the better the processor " Example below ......

The Sandy Bridge socket 1155 3.3GHz i5 processor sells at around £156 here in the U/K

The older Intel Socket 1156 3.2 GHz i5-650 processor retails around £ 130 but is way behind the performance of the Sandy Bridge !

As for AMD ..The Phenom II range are pretty quick at the top end of their range ,bearing in mind your mentioned budget , a Phenom X6 would be around the £120 mark , but again ..there are so many models that comparisons are not always easy to make .The six core models are pegged at a price range to compete with the Intel Core i series but the prices are pretty much the same as Intels prices and in that case scenario I would stay with Intel .

As for Graphics cards , ATI use the HD prefix as opposed to the nVidia GT prefix

so for example HD 5570 models @ 650 MHz Core clock and 1Gb RAM ...then the HD 5670 @ 775 MHz clock and 1Gb RAM .The HD 5770 @ 850MHz clock ...the 5770 will cost around £ 60 more than a 5570 though !

As to your final query about memory and speed etc...the important criteria is to ensure that your hard earned money is spent on components that work in harmony ......a decent graphics card can be severely " hobbled " by bottlenecks caused by a slower spin hard drive for example

A hard drive spin speed of 7200 rpm is preferable to the commonly fitted 5400 rpm type .

To summarise ....if you buy off the shelf .....you have the components that the manufacturer deems as the best marriage of hardware and peripherals at the price bracket you select ..If you go for a Custom build from a reputable system builder ....you can select the configuration that suits you , and all compatibility issues are examined and resolved by the builder prior to final assembl and testing !

I take on board the comment that Hugh remarked regarding a bad experience with a smaller company ...but if you use a reputable manufacturer with verified review ratings and reputation , you should be fine .

Have a look here for an example of the options and choices available and see if it interests you ...................................

http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk

It will give you an idea of which way to proceed and all the options available ..Hope this helps ...and let us know how yoy progress :smileywink:

Re: Buying a new computer advice

huwyngr — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:10:53 GMT

mike ...

Marilyn Monroe said it -- You can never have enough disk space or RAM .....

The top AMD CPU is an 8 core one! But I would not recommend it from the initial reports since it only shows an improvement if fully loaded and most systems / software are likely not to be able to do that!

I would think any 4 core CPU would suit you and I would feel comfortable with about 3GHz CPU speed -- BTW AMD are well thought of for overclocking if you ever want to play with that and ASUS motherboards handle that too.

I can't really help on graphics -- I use the onmotherboard ATH Radeon that comes on my motherboard. If you are a gamer maybe it matters; if you are into really high level Photoshop with the multi $100 version and not the elements maybe it matters.

Some of the newest AMD CPUs have the graphics built into the CPU which really maxes the communication link!

Re: Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:38:38 GMT

What I need help with is the graphics that come with default with Core i5/i7 devices dedicated or do they use system resources? How about Core i7s?

I am currently using benchmarks to compare the processor speeds. And I just asked my parents and they said they want a built PC (not one you build yourself) by famous companies, preferable HP (my dad says he wants a HP PC). Also, with my current laptop (with Core 2 Duo P7450 2.13 GHz, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4570, 4 GB ram, I tend to hit the 100% mark when watching HTML5 videos).

Also, how good are HP in comparason to Dell?

I am currently eyeing http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/hewletpack-hp-pavilion-p6-2065uk-desktop-pc-bundle-with-hp-2311x-23-led-backlit-monitor-11369318-pdt.html. Yes its a little over budget, but I hope that I can bring down the price with price comparasons and coupons.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

delphinium — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:47:36 GMT

I found that the most practical method of choosing a computer is to look at all of the machines available in your price range. Most sellers list the major components. Then Google the reviews on those components. You may find yourself balancing power against cost, or software provided against a better graphics card. If the supplier has upgrades available to the components, check those as well to determine if they are worth the added cost. Some machines are software heavy and the cost is including software that you may already have or do not need. Definitely keep the bottom line in mind as the price can climb by leaps and bounds.

I believe my machine started at $800 and by the time I upgraded components, added Microsoft Office, and extra DVD drive and an extra hard drive, it hit $1,200. It is, however, the best, most reliable machine I ever had and does everything I want it to do.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

huwyngr — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:53:17 GMT

Re that HP:

<< The sleek modern PC has got plenty of storage space with the 1.5TB hard drive so you can store all your multi-media files and the family's too with no trouble at all. The desktop computer also boasts an impressive 4GB of RAM >>

Remember what I said about having only one hard drive ... when it crashes everything goes. However it is something that is not expensive or difficult to add yourself but check whether that affects the HP warranty.

Too little RAM given that you have a 64 bit OS and want to do graphics video etc so check options to increase and find out if the 4GB is in 2 slots or 4 slots (if the motherboard has 4 slots as most desktops do) If the RAM is in 2 out of 4 slots then you can add another 2 x 2GB yourself and if you buy from someone like Crucial and let them check what is right for your specific machine you can do this for not much money.

Here's the link to Crucial UK for your specific model:

http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/listparts.aspx?model=Pavilion%20p6-2065uk&Cat=RAM

and as I feared it has only 2 slots

<< Although the memory can be installed one module at a time, the best performance comes from using matched pairs of modules. >>

so you need to check how HP configure it -- 1 x 4GB or 2 x 2GB -- if the latter then if you want to upgrade then you have to pull that RAM and replace it -- 2 x 4GB from Crucial about £45 inc VAT.

Here's a link to HP's specification for that model and when you see it you will see why I admire HP for the detail they give on their website:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c03020783&lang=en&cc=us&taskId=101&contentType=SupportFAQ&prodSeriesId=5151865&prodTypeId=12454

Note that it only has USB 2 sockets front and back so the higher speed USB 3 I mentioned is not available on board but this is something that can be added later, as could eSATA, by using the available card slots on the motherboard. So could a graphics card if you found the performance of the onboard graphics is not enough for you. Note that you could start with a lower level CPU in the group listed if it saved you money and upgrade later, but that kind of selection might not be available at the price PCWorld offer.

Oh and the good news is that it seems to come with a 60 day trial of Norton Internet Security!

Re: Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:10:26 GMT

The 60 days Norton trial is kinda useless as I already have an existing Norton subscription ^_^.

Also see any USB3 PCs sold by PCWorld/Currys/Comet or through HP online?

Re: Buying a new computer advice

huwyngr — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:30:09 GMT

mikedov wrote:
The 60 days Norton trial is kinda useless as I already have an existing Norton subscription ^_^.

Also see any USB3 PCs sold by PCWorld/Currys/Comet or through HP online?

It's not useless if your subscription is for NIS and so you do not have to remove it and clean up as you would have to if it were some other brand. You might even find that OnLineSupport via CHAT would add the days on but I honestly don't know if they will -- no harm in asking.

I'm sorry but I'm not in the USA and can't spend the time searching PCWorld for you -- you could always ask them!

You can add a PCI USB 3 crd yourself for about £40 ....

You can get an external had drive from PCWorld for about £90

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/western-digital-desktop-external-hard-drives/720_7065_70070_3177_BA00003046-BV00252001-BA00003050-BV00252024/xx-criteria.html

I would only choose from Seagate or Western Digital and avoid any other brands.

Re: Buying a new computer advice

bleeper24 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:33:48 GMT

Hi again mike

You wrote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I need help with is the graphics that come with default with Core i5/i7 devices dedicated or do they use system resources? How about Core i7s?

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The Pavilion model you are looking at has the excellent Intel Core i7-2600 and will obviously have the high build quality that HP rightly deserve ...I can only confirm that the graphics capability of this "Shared Graphics " model is stated as "HD Graphics 2000 (850MHz)

This generation of processors can handle graphics much better than many other processor / motherboard combinations have been capable of in the past !

In comparison to the current spec that you stated you are currently using (am I correct in assuming that it is a Dell Studio 15 ) ?

If it is ...then the specification of the Pavilion will far outperform the configuration of the processor and the ATI HD 4570 you currently are using !

To answer your query .......Yes ....the i7 Pavilion is a "Shared graphics " configuration..so some of the power of your processor will be used to handle the graphics needs wether it be 3D games or any graphics intensive application .There will still be plenty of processor power available for multi task usage ....

Dedicated graphics are still recommended for high frame rate game play and smoother operation of any graphic intensive applications though .Only you yourself can decide just what level of performance you require .

The HP Pavilion will certainly surpass your present rig

If it is any help....you'll find that the HD 2000 shared graphics performance equates roughly to the comparable performanc of

ATI HD5450 or ATI HD 5570 levels of performance !

Hope this helps ?

Re: Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:06:39 GMT

Sorry to bother you again but looking at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Packard-Bell-iXtreme-Processor-Graphics/dp/B005VOTPUQ/ref=sr_1_14?m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1320840844&sr=1-14 I am seeing Core Solo? Does that mean it only have 1 core? However, it mention Core i7. Confusing!

Also, is this website reliable for benchmarking? http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Phenom+II+X6+1045T

Also is http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-p7-1040uk-Desktop-i5-2310-Processor/dp/B005626ZGA/ref=sr_1_13?m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1320840844&sr=1-13 better or worse than the HP machine I mentioned earlier? How about http://h40059.www4.hp.com/uk/homedesktops/product.php?id=LL284EA&experience=direct. It is certainly cheaper.

Accer vs. HP? Which is a more reliable brand? How about Dell? Their desktop are way cheaper than HP but I had a Dell lappy that quit after 6 years.

Is AMD Athlon II X3 / X2 worse or better than Core i5s? Core i3s? Core 2 Duos?

Re: Buying a new computer advice

mikedov — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:42:21 GMT

Out of these, which is the best so far:

Packard Bell iXtreme I8525uk: Intel Core i7-2600 (8967) | 4 slot RAM (Max 16 GB) | http://www.amazon.co.uk/Packard-Bell-iXtreme-Processor-Graphics/dp/B005VOTPUQ/ref=sr_1_14?m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1320840844&sr=1-14
HP Pavilion p7-1040uk Desktop: | Intel Core i5-2310 (Benchmark 5853) | 4 slot RAM (Max 16GB) | http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-p7-1040uk-Desktop-i5-2310-Processor/dp/B005626ZGA/ref=sr_1_13?m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1320840844&sr=1-13
HP Pavilion G5470uk: Intel Core i5-2400S (5075) | 2 slot RAM (Max 8 GB) | http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-G5470uk-Desktop-i5-2400S-Processor/dp/tech-data/B0056274TC/ref=de_a_smtd | 2 slot RAM
HP Pavilion p6792uk: AMD Phenom II X6 1045T (benchmark: 5086) | 4 slot RAM (max 16 GB)http://h40059.www4.hp.com/uk/homedesktops/product.php?id=LL284EA&experience=direct
HP Pavilion P6795uk Desktop PC http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-P6795uk-Desktop-Phenom-Windows/dp/B004NSUT7Y/ref=sr_1_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1320844016&sr=1-3
HP Pavilion P6780UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-P6780UK-Desktop-Phenom-Windows/dp/B004KSE4DC/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1320844016&sr=1-1

Re: Buying a new computer advice

bleeper24 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:54:54 GMT

Phew mike ! You're certainly keeping us busy :smileywink:

Apart from the 10 links you've posted ....You've also asked -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Accer vs. HP? Which is a more reliable brand? How about Dell? Their desktop are way cheaper than HP but I had a Dell lappy that quit after 6 years.

Is AMD Athlon II X3 / X2 worse or better than Core i5s? Core i3s? Core 2 Duos?

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As said before , the AMD Phenom range is closest in comparison to the Intel Core i5/i7 Sandy Bridge range The AMD Athlon II series are still reliable workhorses and some of the "Black " series can be pushed to extreme performance capabilities if you are familiar with overclocking procedures !

For anyone not wanting to "tweak or fiddle " with processor settings..then the Intel Sandy Bridge i5's and i7's are better !

As for comparisons of manufacturer reliability ..In my opinion ..HP have best build quality ...then Dell ...finally Acer ....but all manufacturers "slip up " sometimes ...any Desktop or Laptop can succumb to a failure ...I have never been let down by either HP or Dell over the years ....but some users will have had issues as its' a hard fact , that failures and glitches will occur with even new equipment sometimes .

Right ..thats' another one down ....now to the ten links and all the various models you've bookmarked :smileywink:.

It would take an age to summarize all the data and the possibile permutations and how they all compare .There are a huge amount of variations of processor types and GPU Graphics cards in your list , and the simple answer is that the GPU cards that vary between the ATI HD 6570 and the GT 440 will handle graphics better than your current set up

The Pavilion P6-2065 with the Intel Core i7 coupled with the ATI 6570 dedicated graphics could well be the best performer in your list ...but as you may be aware ..this is not including a monitor as part of the deal ...A chat with your parents about your budget limits will be needed if you decide on the HP Pavilion p6-2065 though! .

Regards.........Ed

Re: Buying a new computer advice

delphinium — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:31:39 GMT

This website info can be used two ways. Click on performance or click on price performance. As has been mentioned, you have to determine the best machine based on usage, processor size and speed and the quality of video card. The links you provide do not give sufficient info in most cases to judge.

It also takes considerable time to go through all of the info and comparisons and is something you should be doing yourself so that you know what you are getting.

This site is helpful as far as performance and value comparison of CPU's, but you also need a machine with enough RAM to support the processor. A high end big dollar processor with low RAM and a low end video card won't give you the best bang for the buck.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#