Norton 360

[BillN]

I have Vista Home Premium with SP1 and Power Desk7. All working happily with 360 version 1. My subscription is up next month so I decided to download v2 and try it before purchase. Big mistake,

1) I immediately encountered the right click crash of both Windows Explorer and Power Desk. I did lots of research and used a program called ShellExView to see all of the shell extensions that are on my computer. Since this problem arose right after 360 V2, I disabled all of the Symantec shell extension - Problem disappeared!!! I then re-enabled them 1 by 1 and found that there are 2 Norton 360 shell extensions that are causing the right click problem TP Context Menu Class and BU Context Menu class. With these disabled, no right click problems.

2) Backup issues - I previously use 360-v1 to back up specific folders to an external drive. When I upgraded to V2, I tried to do the same. The list of my prior backup folders had not been ported over to the new version so I started from scratch. I unchecked all of the default sections and only used the "other" section. Unfortunately, the backup did not allow me to include all of the folders that I wanted. It reached a maximum of 23.6 BG and stopped (more than 60 GB available on the external drive). In addition, some of the folders that had been selected only contained a few subfolders on the list rather than all of the files and folders. To top it all off, V1 backed up files and folders with their original names. V2 backed up the files and folders in some kind of compressed format which, of course, is only readable by the original computer that did the backup. Thus - if the computer crashes, bye bye files. No ability to copy and paste them to another computer. This is a complete step backward rather than an improvement. I spent 2 hours on line with the Chat support without any resolution of my file backup problems. What a waste of time.

I then went back and uninstalled 360 V2 and then used the Norton Removal Tool. I then reinstalled 30 V! from my original disk (you can't download v1 any more - only v2). All of the updates have been applied and everything is working just fine. Right click is OK and my backups have legitimate file and folder names.

Has anyone else experienced similar problems or is this some quirk of my computer (HP dv600t). Thanks.

Message Edited by Tony_Weiss on 04-23-2008 08:26 PM

[matt_phillips]

Hi Bill,

The issue regarding an apparent incompatability between PowerDesk 7 and Norton 360 V2 (and not V1) is currently being investigated and the findings match yours (nice detective work, btw). We're working on a standardized workaround until a more permanent solution can be released, but it matches what you have already done. 

I appreciate your regression to V1 and am not looking to sell you on V2. But on the backup issue, I see several points that I'd like to confirm:

1. Backup settings did not port from V1 to V2. Can you confirm whether you were forced to reboot (assuming you did an install-over?)
2. Starting from scratch, you went to backup specific files and folders you were interested in after unchecking all the pre-made catagories.
   1. the final list failed to include all subfolders of some of the folders you selected. If this is true, were you able to select them manually?
   2. at 23.6gb, the backup would not permit additional file or folder selection. Was there any dialog or message associated with this behavior?
3. The backup format in V2 is in a proprietary format, unlike V1, and makes them vulnerable to hardware crashes. Fundamentally, this is true whether they are hashed or not - and you would be able to recover them if they had been copied to another drive using N360's "Restore from Other" option.

I'm also interested in the communities feedback regarding the changes to backup. Is this a problem, and if so, what kinds of scenarios do you think are most troubling?

Thanks,

Matt 

[BillN]

Hi Matt:

Thanks for your reply.  I did install 360 v2 over 360 v1 and it did reboot at the end of the process.  I was not aware of any problems with the install. 

Your assumptions about the backup were correct.  I unchecked all of the pre-made categories and then began to add folders to the category "other".  The counter incremented as I added additional folders but never added anything more (neither individual files nor folders) once it reached that max of 23.6 gb.  In addition, I found that only some of the subfolders in the folders added were listed.  No matter what I tried, I was unable to add any additional files,subfolders, or folders, to this "other" category.  I spent a particularly unproductive 2 hours on the phone with the Help desk Chat service.  The problem was bounced to a "senior technician" whose final solution was to uncheck each and every file and then start all over again.  This would have taken many, many hours to do without any guarantee that it would be working after I spent all of this additional time.  I thus decided to uninstall V2 and go back to V1.  My subscription expires in a few weeks and I plan on purchasing V2 but using the key code to renew my subscription to V1 until these issue can be resolved,

Lastly, I understand the reasoning for this new proprietary format  for users where unauthorized access to administrator files would be a problem.  However, I would bet that most users would prefer the 360 V1 method of backup.   It was easy and worked quite smoothly.  I like having the files and folders displayed in their native format so that I can easily retrieve them (or view them) even without Norton 360.  I consider this new format a step backward instead of an improvement, especially given your comment "The backup format in V2 is in a proprietary format, unlike V1, and makes them vulnerable to hardware crashes."

Unless these issues with backup can be resolved, I will probably decide to purchase some other company's backup program - This would be a departure for me from having used Norton products for almost a decade.

Bill  

[adam_schepis]

BillN,

I am one of the engineers on backup, and your feedback is definitely helpful.  It sounds like you understand the reasoning behind the format we've used to back files up in N360 v2.0 but that you're still concerned with potentially losing your data in the event of a harddrive crash.  There are always remedies for restoring your files, however.

First and foremost, any machine that has Norton 360 2.0 installed will be able to restore your locally backed up files.  So if you're backing up to a removable hard drive or to a network share and the machine you were backing up crashes, you have several options:

1.) repair/re-install windows on the machine, reinstall N360 2.0 and then restore

2.) plug your external hard drive (or map a network drive to your network share) into another machine that has N360 2.0 installed and restore the files you need to the other machine.

Additionally, we're incorporating all sorts of user feedback into the product for future versions and we're working towards a solution that is both secure in the format that we store it in and is also highly intuitive and accessible for the user who wants to restore their files (even in the scenario of a hardware failure.)

Regards,

Adam 

[BillN]

Adam:

What about my problem of not being able to backup all the desired folders/files?  Version 2 installed on my machine did not add all of the subfolders to the "other" category and did not allow me to add anything additional once 23.6 gb had been reached.  There was plenty of room on the external backup drive so space was not an issue.  I am really concerned about this and want to try and resolve it before installing version 2 again.

Bill

[adam_schepis]

Bill,

Without inspecting the machine I can't say for certain, but I can provide you with some insight as to what is going on and what the issue might be.

Was the "Other" category checked off?  The files wouldn't be counted in this scenario. 

Additionally, how many of the files in the folders you added were already picked up in the scan for files?  Norton 360 v2.0 classifies files slightly differently from 1.0.  In 1.0 all files that were added specifically by the user were considered to be "Other" files.  However, in N360 v2.0 when you add files they are categorized based on the type of file and any files that don't fit into a pre-defined category go into "Other". 

So if you added a folder and it has all .doc files, the documents category would increase, not the "other" category.  Therefore, if the files you added were in a folder that was already being scanned by N360 and where already picked up in a category then the size would not have change when you added them because then some files would be double counted.

The best test would be to run the backup and then go into the Restore UI and check to see if any of the files you added specifically are missing.  It's a bit painstaking, but the search functionality should make it easier (you can just search by path if you hit the checkbox to do so, then just search for your folder name.)

Hope this helps, let me know if there is any more that I can do,

Adam 

[jphilli8]

I was very upset to discover just today, that Norton 360 Version 2 has changed the way Norton 360 saves backup files.  Unlike Version 1 which saved backup files as a mirror image as to what was on my C: drive as an immediately readable file exactly as it is on my c: drive, Norton 360 version 2 only saves the backup files in a non-readable encrypted backup format only. This change is not noted in your literature that I could find and I was not warned of this change when I did an automatic update that switched me from Version 1 to Version 2.  I just spent more than 7 hours online with Norton's chat tech support and in rebooting, re-running an in just dealing with trying to find out why I couldn't read my backup files on my external G drive anymore.  The second Norton tech support person finally told me about Version 2's change to encrypted only files.  In my opinion, this change is terrible and totally doesn't address my needs. I was also told by Norton's chat tech guy that the only way I could get the ability to immediately read my backup files again was to uninstall Norton 360 v2 and reinstall Version 1, but I now learn from reading elsewhere on this website that Version 1 is no longer available as a download on Norton's site, so even that option is not available (even if it were I was told that I could not upgrade the Version 1 features.) 

I am an attorney and I need to immediately be able to see a mirror image of the documents and other files I have saved as backup files on my external drive.  I use my backup files in various ways, including as duplicate, second copies to save, or I can take my external portable G: Firelite drive with me on a trip without taking my laptop, etc., etc.   By switching to encrypted only backup files Norton 360 Version 2 deprives me of my ability to do any of those things.  Worse, it deprives me of the ability to immediately check myself to see if the backup files are full and complete and accurate as I can no longer have immediate readable access to my backup files.

I was only just told by Norton's chat tech support person that there is now no way I can do a backup and have immediately readable files and that the only way to make Version 2's encrypted backup files "readable" was to do a "restore" and restore these encrypted backup files to the C: drive on the computer I saved them from, but this I won't do as it is a terrible liability risk as then I am having to trust that what Norton 360 Version 2 has saved as encrypted files is accurate and complete otherwise, if for any reason whatsoever, it's not, I will have overwritten good files.  This is frought with potential legal problems, liability for me, etc.  It is also, in my opinion, putting Norton at risk as well. 

I also only just learned today that even the Version 2 encrypted files when restored can only be restored to the computer they were taken off of.  This presents a huge set of other problems, e.g. what if that computer has suffered a malfunction?  What if I just want to transfer the backup files to another computer for some reason, etc.?  

I am taking the time to exlain all of this on this website to you so perhaps, just perhaps, the team leader on this site at Norton will PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE -- TELL YOUR DEVELOPMENT TEAM TO IMMEDIATELY ISSUE A NEW VERSION 3 THAT EITHER GOES BACK TO IMMEDIATELY READABLE BACKUP FILES AS VERSION 1 DID, OR, GIVES YOUR CUSTOMERS THE OPTION TO ELECT WHICH BACKUP FORMAT THEY WISH TO SAVE THEIR FILES IN, E.G. IMMEDIATELY READABLE MIRROR IMAGE BACKUP FILE FORMAT OR ENCRYPTED BACKUP FILE FORMAT.  Otherwise, I feel you have given me no choice but to switch to a competitor vendor of Norton's for my backup and security needs.  Sorry, but Norton has caused me enormous grief on this one; I simply can't believe your development team did this.  What were they thinking?  Even if encrypted files are more stable, you are ignoring the real world usage of backup files.

[BillN]

Well said.  I completely agree that this encrypted backup is a step backward for most users.  If the developers of Norton 360 want to have en encrypted backup for security reasons (for those users who need to have that security), then let that be an option.  That way, an organization that has a need for secure, encrypted files can check off that choice.  Otherwise, the users who wish to have a unencrypted, directory and file specific backup (I suspect that this represents the majority of users) will be able to have a version 1 type backup to an external or network drive where the files would be visible to other computers with access to that network drive.  This would also be much faster as well to set up (as evidenced by V1 vs.. V2).

I have not reinstalled my copy of version 2 and my version 1 license expires in a few days.  If I don't see any acceptable solution from Norton, I plan to use another backup program to backup my files and then just backup a bare minimum of files with N360 just to prevent the software from yelling at me.  The question that will then arise is whether or not I should continue to use N360 in the future since I will not be using the backup feature.  I can then find some other vendor to provide Internet security, antivirus and firewall capability. 

[adam_schepis]

BillN and jphilli8,

Just wanted to drop a note to give you some insight and background on this issue.  The purpose for not storing the files as plain data with the file name is primarily for security.  If one of your disks is stolen, or your accidentally drop the USB key that you have been backing up to, do you want any one who picks it up to be able to read your data?  Also, if you work on multi-user machines, do you want a non-adminstrator to be able to read administrator's files once they are copied on to backup media?  These privacy and security concerns really pushed us in the direction of ending the practice of writing files plainly to the backup media.  

That being said, we hear what you're saying.  We are actively working on developing new features that will give you the best of both worlds.  You will be able to back up files in a more secure manner, and you will also have a means to browse those files through Windows Explorer as if they were just sitting on your machine in plain data.  We are also working on a number of other usability features and utilities so that you aren't stuck with data on a disk that you can't retrieve and utilize. 

Let me know if you have any more questions,

Adam

jphilli8 - In response to your concern that the data may not be copied correctly to the backup media (you said you used to check by opening the file) I am happy to inform you that there is a "verify all backups" checkbox in the backup configuration in the "Where to Back Up" page.  If this is checked Norton 360 will copy the file and then validate that the bits that were copied to the destination are the same as the ones in the original file.   If they are not, you will see a failure in backup that will alert you to the issue and the file will be backed up again next time backup is run. 

[mmn]

This is my first visit to this site.  So glad I found you although after reading about backups I'm feeling a little numb and depressed.  Wasted time and money.   I spent the last two weeks or so worrying because I couldn't find my backed up files on my portable hard drive.  Google search found you.  So my computer isn't acting up again and the drive still works it's 360 V2.  Bummer.  This won't work at all.  I am only a retired genealogy buff but I can't chance loosing all these pictures and records and knowing they are encrypted on a hard drive is useless or perhaps one step above.  I used 360 for the last year and loved it.  It's my renewal that I can't use. 

Couple questions.  First, can I reinstall the old one with the extended virus protection?

Second.  Was this change explained anywhere ahead of time?  In fact, is it explained anywhere other than this forum?  I read the new manual and see nothing about it.  Great magazine reviews don't mention it or else I missed it.  Got online support from Symantec and was not told about it.  When I stated I haven't been able to see my backed up files on the hard drive nothing was mentiioned.  Instead support took control of my computer and set it for full backups.  After I did a full backup and still couldn't find any documents on the drive newer than two weeks ago I started googleing and found you.