08-02-2011 08:26 PM
Further Details from Partition Commander lists the drives above as:
Drive 0: Drive"W" 300 GB 279 actual GB size 9.6 used leaving 269.7 free
Drive 1: all number in GB:
size used free
Local Disk Q 9.7 2.7 6.9
Local Disk R 7.8 2.1 5.6
Local Disk C 29.2 13.2 16.0
Extended Partition 53.7
D 1.9 1.4 <1GB
E 1.9 .9 1
F 2.0 1.4 <1GB
G 2.0 <1GB 1.2
H 4.0 1.8 2.1
I 2.0 1.4 <1GB
J 1.9 1.3 <1GB
K 1.9 <1GB 1.2
L 1.9 1 <1GB
M 1.9 1.1 <1GB
N 2.0 1.8 <1GB
O 2.0 1.6 <1GB
Local Disk P 15.7 13.2 2.5
After Ghost installs itself, it will attempt to start the related services. These services look at all of the drives in the system and attempts to enumerate them. This is where it sounds like it is failing.
My thoughts are that this is related to one or more of the following:
So here is what I recommend if you are feeling ambitious:
1. Boot up the system to the Ghost 15 CD (as BrianK suggested above) and create an image of the operating system partition (drive C:\). Save this off to another drive.This ensures that no matter what we do, we have a backup and can restore from the SRD if necessary.
2. Turn the computer OFF and unplug it.
3. Disconnect ALL drives in the computer (USB, Firewire, IDE, SATA, etc) except for Drive 0.
4. Boot up the machine and you should be able to get into the operating system.
5. From here, uninstall Partition Commander and any other software that might have anything to do with partitions or partition/drive management. Reboot after all changes are made.
6. Install Ghost 15.
7. If the install fails, we can boot to the SRD and restore the C:\ drive back.
08-03-2011 08:43 AM
Thanks so much for taking an interest in my problem.
I know I wrote a lot and seems from your reply there is some confusion about what I said. So I copied what you suggested and will comment on where I think I was not clear enough before and you can tell me how to modify your instructions to attempt to do what you suggest. (It's a Great Idea! Please don't take anything I write wrong, just making factual corrections so I know where I can go from here).
>After Ghost installs itself, it will attempt to start the related services.
>These services look at all of the drives in the system and attempts to
>enumerate them. This is where it sounds like it is failing.
Maybe my computer skills are not complete, but I did ask Dell and Microsoft as well as the Norton professional I contacted. As far as I know, I never successfully "installed" Norton as when it says "Restart is needed to complete the Installation process" the Windows never came back on again to display the message or any sign that "Norton has been successfully installed" and some window (Like I know does exist in other versions of Norton products) asking me if I want to "Run" Norton Ghost "now".
Everyone points to something in the process that corrupted the boot/start up process of the Windows operating program itself. Its not just merely Norton "enumerating" the drives because then its just "looking" & "examining" at the system directory structure and partitions, not effecting or changing the registry, or boot drive or start up drive [Thus, unless you tell me otherwise, Ghost 15 should not be doing that unless I told Ghost to make changes in any particular drive order or copying which I could not as I never got Ghost's version 15 to run on this computer.....ever.]
>My thoughts are that this is related to one or more of the following:
>1. A 3rd party service running on the computer (one of the many
>programs you have installed)
YES, my thinking is headed toward that. I was going to remove the programs that operate in the background, but you suggest I remove ALL third party programs? Even if not operating? That can be difficult as I did buy and install them until I get Norton Utilities 15 installed and have the ability to correct and fix registry errors. Once they have occurred and if I have no program installed, it is impossible to install one (after the damage has occurred, right), so I have these third party Avanquest programs which installed and run ok but certainly are not the usual "Norton" quality products I am used to.
(BTW: Norton's tech people now inform me that I should have installed Ghost before "any" other Norton product including Internet Security or Norton Utilities both of which might be useful to getting me out of these problems if I could boot to Windows in a Safe Mode, but not having them installed at all, and if Ghost Still fails to install, it leaves me little choice but to empty the drive and reformat and start all over again. So maybe this might be a reason for Norton/Symantec people to be convinced that a workaround solution should be offered for people like me who require installation of these protective programs before Norton Ghost goes in knowing that such programs can cause catastrophic failure of the entire Operating System.).
>2. The second hard drive and the many partitions, and possible
>3. Partition Commander.
But I do not have Partition Commander running unless I click on the icon.....I can remove it if that is what it takes.
Does installing it after Ghost is installed present any problems? (I do and have viewed in this Forum site (I never knew about or needed until now), many other problems with Norton that I also never knew existed, and most of the replies I've read seem to say as part of the solution to "remove and reinstall Norton Ghost"
So I would be asking, since its now quite a number of utility programs I'm being asked to remove before installing Norton Ghost, I wonder that in the future, if I find this method works, (sorry for long sentence!) if all this process now means all of these extra programs should be removed each and every time I need to (or am instructed to by tech or forum) to remove and re-install Ghost?
And of course what I can't predict if its just the ones I have so far or those plus any others that I get in future? In other words, are you suggesting that Norton Ghost has to be the very first program installed on a clean drive after Windows? (No where else have I read this suggestion and wondering why that would ever be so, as one would realize after a while I will have my 150 programs migrated from the old drive to here (either the original ones, or new ones with new product keys new versions of old ones I want to pay to improve). Then what you're suggesting as a solution really is a principle, that Norton Ghost has to be the first resident in the drive after Windows is installed? That can have serious consequences as many of the programs I use make proprietary data streams and removing them also (by those programs protocols) corrupts the data streams thereby rendering the data in those programs unusable even by the program themselves. They are not designed to be simply removed and reinstalled without paying for a new product key to preserve that company's "cash flow" I know all about those reasons. (Don't worry! Those missing "5" drives I keep mentioning here and there which duplicate letters S T U V W are really those drives and never entered into the picture as they have not yet been attached to this computer ever, as I never got time in all these problems to check if the programs work in their new computer home yet!) I will still have circa 900 GB to store away on that Terabyte drive (twice) whenever I get Ghost working and attach those missing drives in IEEE cases or USB cases later on.
>So here is what I recommend if you are feeling ambitious:
(What have i got to lose? Just time. As right now I have a very excellent giant black doorstop or Bookend as the computer is not being used for what I purchased it for).
>1. Boot up the system to the Ghost 15 CD (as BrianK suggested above)
Andreash: Sorry to inform you. I WANTED to have a physical copy of Ghost 15 for just that purpose! But I was informed that Norton no longer sends out Physical copies (It took several weeks to obtain the very "last" in my area of the country copy of Norton Internet Security 2011, so I'm able to install and remove and reinstall that one easily). Without Norton Ghost 15 installed I have no way to create that boot up disk as I know comes with Symantec products in the past, but as I mentioned back to BrianK, I did not see anywhere on the Norton Ghost Store download site to load a "program" or etc to make a bootable disk that would assist me if the Windows operating system fails again (remember I need a "bootable" disk. I had some "rescue disks" but they were not able to help as too many changes were made and at the time I did not save the changes (sorry! was just trying to get Ghost inside to use to save everything rather than using the cheeper systems to save in-between minor changes to the new "W" Drive (Raptor 300 GB SATA drive).
> and create an image of the operating system partition (drive >C:\).
Interesting point you have raised with me without knowing it. I wonder.....Since Drive "C" (actual drive C for the computer) was corrupted and locked by Microsoft using their WGA program, I have had two new installations over the years. Other than "P" Parallel Windows Home XP edition is only one working in Drive 1 and the new Drive 0 (SATA Drive) has its operating system forced by Microsoft to take the only open drive letter "W" available to it. I could change it by using Partition Commander or even Windows Disk Manager if I "dare" but please remember!
EVERY one of these programs (and Microsoft) cautions me against doing such changes until I "save" all programs and data first!
Which is the chicken/egg cart/horse problem I seem to have here that I would and should (after 6 years) need a safety "saved" copy of all my programs and files (at least on Drives 0 and 1 if not everywhere else), before I change or attempt to change or install new programs. I always take a chance when installing those Utility programs but they are there one hopes to prevent such disasters (such as de-fragmenting the registry, or fixing the disks or checking the disks as well as Norton, best one for copying the disks using Ghost
>Save this off to another drive.
(Got to buy one unless I reuse that brand new Maxtor by Formatting it first so its empty again?) I have to get some type of enclosure for it first? Unless I install it internally to transfer back to Drive 0 in case it fails again? Just my own complications of not having free space on any drive to save "300 GB" and don't have the versitility of Ghost which I know I can ask it to just "save" the filled sections of the drive, i.e. just a measly 9.6 GB as you can see in Drive "W" above. So I know it sounds simple, but again without resources to make these things happen right at this time. But I'll try to work around it. OF course Ghost can "save to" and "restore from" a partition, which the other programs might or might not be able to do and I've never tried it before so being "untested" I'd not want to experiment with those systems.
I do have earlier versions of "Ghost" on the older way it functioned on DOS level, so by floppy or CD Drive, but unfortunately they all had the 32? (I forget) 32 GB size limit which answers your question if I have so many prior versions of Ghost lying around, (last one is 2006 sold to me in 2005), why don't I just try using one of the older versions to make a one time 9.6 GB copy of Drive W before I begin so it makes everything easy like 15 minutes after anything goes wrong I'm back in business again with the drive restored rather than taking weeks to restore all programs and wireless internet keyboards mice data tablet, etc. Thus the older ones were not even programmed or aware of the current 250/300 GB drives I now have, let alone my two new 1 terabyte size drives.
>This ensures that no matter what
>we do, we have a backup and can restore from the SRD if necessary.
Right now, I only have other third party "proprietary" types of saving programs, which means I am unhappy that I cannot "view" the contents of the drive to confirm that they were actually "saved" before I attempt to make these modifications or installation attempts at Ghost 15.
>2. Turn the computer OFF and unplug it.
>3. Disconnect ALL drives in the computer (USB, Firewire, IDE, SATA,
>etc) except for Drive 0.
>4. Boot up the machine and you should be able to get into the operating system.
Yes, got your plan it so far. I tried installing Ghost this way for the third try, after that and even with Norton's help/assistance, it failed, so lets try your additions to that method below:
>5. From here, uninstall Partition Commander and any other software
>that might have anything to do with partitions or partition/drive >management. Reboot after all changes are made.
>6. Install Ghost 15.
>7. If the install fails, we can boot to the SRD and restore the C:\ drive
I thank you all for reading this far. Here is a good question for those who can check inside Ghost as to how it physically "works":
When it starts up again, does it check for the "C" drive as standard? If it does, it will find a non-operating C Drive (just as when I had both Drive 0 and Drive 1 installed) or
If Ghost will find only a Drive labeled "W" when it boots up into WIndows XP Professional system in Drive 0. No where does it find "Drive C" I know you may have written "Drive C" meaning to have me substitute my correct drive letter for the "C", but it set me to wondering if the program would know and look for the real physical booting drive (P) in Drive 1 or (W) in Drive 0, or does its basic commands upon being "installed" and asked to restart include it looking for the hierarchy of drive letters beginning with Drive C? If so that could explain much, but again the solution is always listed as "Save" all your programs and data before attempting any changes or corrections to your drive lettering or partitions or sizes or content!
Exactly the purpose for which Ghost 15 does so well!
(As a Symantec Employee, can you suggest that there is still a need for those of us who prefer to have a bootable installable CD drive that even could be used (albeit temporarily) to copy drives/partitions without actually installing the program, i.e. operating as the older Ghosts did from the floppy/CD Drives?
(Yes, please tell me your thoughts as well with this added information).
Thanks again to all!
A Peter Norton Fan
08-03-2011 09:10 AM
I appreciate all of the details. I think I thoroughly understand the long history of this computer.
Just a quick question: Is the current, booting operating system Windows XP, and is it installed onto the C:\ parition,on disk 0?
08-03-2011 02:07 PM
Thanks again for reading all that, sorry for any delay in responding back.
There were actually "two" computers physically. The first one from 2000/2004 was discarded in March of 2011 in favor of the current Dell Model Optiplex 320 computer. The Drive 1 is from that older computer (as well as all the circa 600 GB other data drives=900 GB total).
Drive 0 originally (!) in March 2011 was loaded with its own Windows XP Professional Operating system while it was a Maxtor Drive. That was (WAS) correctly seen as a C:\ partition for the entire drive. Both drives had correctly been installed so they switch the "C" and hide it from each other (never mind the other C did not work, it was visible only in the Drive 1 and "invisible" to the Drive 0.
Something occurred during the Installation by the Dell/ Microsoft people for the New Western Digital Raptor Drive 300 GB SATA Drive 0, (Maybe its endemic to SATA drives (I tried to get four SATAs on my old computer once long story again I was not able to despite the motherboard/PCI card having full capability for it so gave up)----yes I do give up after a few years sometimes.....
I took the original PCI card with me to the new computer, as the new motherboard had only "one" older IDE hookup. Once I owned a SATA drive it was no longer necessary, so its been DISCONNECTED and the older IDE runs directly from the motherboard, so there is no longer any hardware issues or anything else Dell can find that is causing any problems other than a mystery why the Installation program for the XP Professional assigned the open letter "W" to the lowest (first) Partition of the new Raptor SATA Drive. Also, the hiding of "C" and switching it with what is now called "W" no long functions. Its not a big deal, I know not to peek, poke or load/save things into the OS drive partitions which should not be there, its just for convenience I like having the boot program/BIOS do the hiding for me. Once I get Ghost up and Partition Commander working back in there again between the two I'll fix it myself but I'd rather not complicate issues by attempting to fix it now.
So you are correct that there is ONE giant 300 GB partition for the entire SATA drive, its just called "W" but that situation only was there for failures number two and three of installing Ghost. It was not present, everything "worked" perfectly for the installation of Ghost number one that failed as well.
Once again, as I read what everyone says, and I've only ever had problems with "Ghost" itself (i.e. how do I save something or put it back). Never in all the years since circa 1990's whenever Ghost first arrived, have I had a situation where Ghost either corrupted my Operating system, or caused me to have to load/unload other programs to make it work. This is all strange and new to me.
I will wait until everyone is sure (as best as we can given the nature of this Forum and no one is remotely checking out my computer), before I attempt to try again to install Ghost 15 from the Web download site.
Again, thanks for everyone's help, and I'll do whatever those "kudos" and solution buttons are for when we have a answer that benefits other forum readers (as I see many others are checking in to see this problem as we write).
Still A Peter Norton Fan
08-03-2011 07:27 PM
Is that an Emoticon?
Took me a while with Wikipedia and Google to figure out that was "mad"
(sorry, using my older Mac to write letters so some things do not always show up as expected.....other computer is too new, no "email" into that computer yet as safety precaution, as still sometimes do not have Norton Internet Security installed).
Sorry about that.......
I'm really old computer guy...how old? Built my first computer MITS Altair back in '75....
08-03-2011 09:14 PM - edited 08-03-2011 09:18 PM
Of course not mad...I don't get mad. I've been doing this for too long. Long term, I would suggest considering consolidating all of the partitions into a few partitions, such as an operating system partition and some data partitions. With Microsoft Windows, as you have experienced, sometimes less is more.
08-04-2011 10:18 AM
Replying to Andreash_Utah's message and I hope everyone sees it. Had five choices of whose message to reply to so just took latest reply link. If everyone Brian_K and DaveH and Andreash_Utah as well as those who "read but don't reveal themselves" who are interested can view this.
I am going to follow the instructions presented by everyone and Andreash's list of procedures this afternoon (8-4-11). Wish me luck! I'll report back as soon as I know!
Well, luck will have nothing to do with it if everyone's analysis of the problem is correct then the third party items are causing the errors and by removing them I can install Ghost, and then copy everything! (then?) try putting back in the ones I still would like to have installed.
Just a question for thinking about......If it does fail again, would that mean that maybe its the problem that Norton Ghost 15 (upon restart after installation), is looking for the "C:\" partition and not finding that (either "W" or a non-working one labeled "C") ?
As for installing Ghost 15 today, I will only do this when I have a Norton/Symantec professional on-line remotely and also by phone. I will first remove all the third party items myself and boot back up again. I will leave the removal of Norton products like Internet Security to the professional and that Norton Removal Tool to make sure its removed from everywhere. Unfortunately, I will not have the registry edit program in, so there might be pieces left over in the registry after doing all this. My Dell professional still found left over pieces (more than 10!) in the registry.
Thanks and Kudos to all.
A Peter Norton Fan.
08-08-2011 11:31 AM
Hello again Everyone!
I wanted to give a progress report of what happened when I followed Andreash_Utah's and your others' advice.
I switched to Drive 0 only and I emptied all Third Party Programs (I guess I kept HP Printing programs and a Windows "NET" etc programs as they are very difficult to install, and of course, don't I need Internet for Norton to remotely do the Installation, and its all wireless hub/repeater/router?).
So in all I had 8 or 9 programs other than "windows" or "IE 7" installed on that drive.
I called Norton/Symantec and they successfully (!) installed Ghost 15 in the Drive 0 WIndows XP Professional! It restarted without a blue screen and so everything seemed ok.
Then, I installed back Drive 1. Drive 1 Launches into Windows XP Home perfectly so then I tried launching Drive 0 XP Professional with all the extra drives installed (i.e. so I can use the new Ghost 15 to copy them)
Yes, you guess it...
Microsoft's Blue Screen of Death. Only happens to Drive 0. Only happens to the Drive with Ghost 15 on it (which is the sole reason why I'm never installing Ghost 15 on the Drive 1 until I have used Ghost to copy all the items (and interconnected USB/Firewire Drives) all together first.
Of importance I think is to tell you that when I was removing the third party items (using add/remove programs as Avanquest and others told me is sufficient), Recovery Commander 3 during its removal from the Drive 0 requested that it would not and could not be removed unless I "authorized" the removal of Microsoft's NET. Framework 3! (which is surprising as Norton Ghost required me to install that program in order to complete the installation!).
Now here is the interesting point. I have Avanquest's Recovery Commander 3 installed on Drive 1 as well.
Thinking that this one program might be the cause of the blue screen problem, and even though I should not "touch" programs on Drive 1, since I already got the Fourth time blue screen on Drive 0, I assumed that something Recovery Commander 3 is doing with that "NET.Framework is doing might have something to do with the problem, I took a chance and removed it from Drive 1.
No difference, I still get the Blue Screen trying to launch WIndows XP Professional as long as there are "any" other drives attached. (I can't do a 100% perfect drive in and out as some drives "need" Drive 1 to be in to be recognized, but I did as many different combinations (3?) as I could. All still cause the blue screen.
Of course running the Dell WD Raptor Drive 300 GB SATA drive,
by itself, internally, with Ghost 15 installed,
does still work perfectly now, but no idea why it installed successfully when I removed all the third party items from Drive 0. I do not want to take that chance with my only copy of Drive 1 to remove all third party items and see if the blue screen still occurs, so I had a brainstorm (after I had a headache most of Thursday into Friday after I did all of the above).
I have a program that can "hide" or "show" individual drives as necessary. It works in two formats. One is within a running windows (its better than using Microsoft as it has protections i.e. in case computer loses power etc during the change over operations, etc)
I thought I might try going through the partitions inside Drive 1 and outside one by one C, D, E......even W. and "hide" them one by one and see if I can isolate any particular partition that allows Ghost 15 on Drive 0 to run and then quickly "copy" and "save" everything else if I manage to find that one partition that is in error.
(By the way, System Manager from Dell iolo etc and other programs were used on all the drives (and even Norton Utilities which the person from Symantec installed on Drive 0 as well were used to check out Drive "W" and it passed with flying colors.
Drive 1 has only System Manager on it from Dell iolo (until I get Norton Utilities running which has not been installed awaiting Norton Ghost first to be working and saving the partitions) and according to System Manager there are errors (to be honest) but I always knew of them..... circa 475 errors! but all but one or two minor errors in other partitions they are "missing links" for shortcuts which of course happens when I have so many drives and I kept moving them in and out. But no physical defects to Drive 1 or any other interconnected drives. All working operating systems (boot/ini etc files) all check out ok on Drive 0 and 1.
I can't figure it out!
But just one task left before I report back to everyone here.....that is to actually try hiding the drives one by one. (C through W).
One problem....computer is too new and advanced. I forgot that everything is now "wireless" (super cool) but I forgot that older programs like my hide/show active/boot change over program refuse to use the keyboard/mouse. So Dell has advised me of this problem and I must now find a "wired" USB keyboard. Can't even use my older PS/2 keyboards to USB solution that came with the computer as that still requires my using a USB "hub" that did not exist when the program was written, so can't load a driver in "DOS" for that old program to use to see the keyboard and mouse even though they work that way in booting up BIOS of the original Dell computer format as I purchased it.
Parenthetical question: Does anyone else have these problems or am I changing too much to futuristic stuff too fast?
Will keep everyone posted.
A Peter Norton Fan