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Regular Contributor
tbalint444444
Posts: 581
Registered: ‎02-01-2012

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications


Tony_Weiss wrote:

If you hover over the systray, do the missing icons reappear? We've seen in some cases, when the process are starting back up, the programs loadup again, but the icons are invisible. Try hovering over them and see if they reappear. I realize that most folks on this thread have already restarted their system, but maybe some new posters are able to give it a go. Thanks.


Hi Tony,

 

Sorry, but I don't remember -- this was in November when the FF17 compatibility patch was released, since then I have this option turned on (Apply updates only on reboot).

SGFC
Posts: 762
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Registered: ‎07-02-2009

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications

I am not sure but I *think* I may have done that before I restarted. Since I've had to do that for dead systray icons. For example Yahoo! Messenger sometimes leaves it's systray icon behind after the program is closed.

 

I guess I can really only answer that when the next patch arrives :smileyfrustrated:

Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit / Norton Internet Security 2014
twixt
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Registered: ‎09-26-2011

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications


Tony_Weiss wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

The reboot-less install of this FF18 compatibility patch needs to restart some services; that's how the OS works. We've seen it take up to 90 seconds for the services to start back up again. I know 90 seconds can seem like an eternity when you're waiting waiting waiting for the patch, but that should be around the time it takes.

 

Are you seeing a longer period of time for the services to come back, for the systray icons to return? How much time before all the services come back? For those who aren't seeing them come back at all, how long are you waiting? Do some come back, but not others? Which ones?

 

We want to be sure we're handling this rebootless patching as best we can, so any more details you can provide on specifically what you're seeing and the time it takes to complete is appreciated. Thanks.


 

Hi, Tony.  All the reported issues have one thing in common - the Video Driver was involved in each of them.

 

There is a known problem with NIS installations in regards to Video Driver System Tray items.  An unhandled dependency may sometimes stall either the Video Driver System Tray icon, ccsvchst.exe or both.  On WXP systems, this can occur even during the first specified reboot after an update.

 

On WXP systems, if ccsvchst.exe is the "victim" at reboot, the stall causes Norton Autofix to appear after that reboot - which runs but doesn't fix anything.  Autofix then tells you to seek more help from Symantec Support - which is actually unnecessary in this situation.

 

The solution is to allow the System to settle (no more frantic disk activity) and then do a normal shutdown/startup before NIS throws up the Autofix dialog box.  The restart allows Windows to shuffle the load-order of startup items so things do not conflict - which then allows all the SysTray icons to repopulate normally and ccsvchst.exe to load successfully.

 

 

 

A similar situation can occur on a rebootless update (Vista, W7, W8) that requires SysTray icons to shut down so the patch can be applied - before those processes are restarted.

 

As far as I can see, the problem in these rebootless "stalling" situations is caused by not fully shutting down all chained processes before applying the patch.  Thus, the required linkages are broken in the same way that the linkages are broken on a WXP box during a reboot where ccsvchst.exe stalls and Autofix appears shortly after the system is restarted.

 

 

An example:  The ATI Catalyst Control Panel is composed of at least two pieces, the SysTray icon and the Catalyst Control Center Host Application.  Stopping only one piece to allow the NIS patch to be applied, without stopping its companion as well - will cause the linkages between the two processes to fail to mesh when the Systray Icon process is restarted after the NIS patch is installed.  This will cause the SysTray icon to fail to initialize - which is why the Catalyst SysTray icon disappears.  Please also note that other SysTray icons may depend upon proper chaining of the Catalyst Control Center Host Application - or those other SysTray icons may have their own dependent processes as well - leading to a similar effect with those SysTray icons as with Catalyst Control Center.

 

Note: As far as I am aware, the Nvidia Control Panel has a similar arrangement to Catalyst Control Center - which is why the exact same situation occurs with the Nvidia Control Panel icon as with Catalyst Control Center.

 

 

A reboot is required to sort out the load-order, so the device driver chain is reforged and the linkages between dependent processes are re-established.  Should the "missing icons" problem occur, there is no other fix.  During the start of the boot process after System Shutdown, Vista/W7/W8 analyzes the load-order and ensures all linkages between processes are reforged.  Thus, rebooting solves the problem.

 

 

Things get even more complex with a 64-bit OS.  If Catalyst Control Center has a 32-bit dependent-process linked to a 64-bit Video Driver, everything for that 32-bit process has to go through the Wow64 subsystem - and thus dependencies become even more complex.  This is one of the reasons a problem may manifest itself and be fixed properly for 32-bit systems - but the problem still occurs under the 64-bit versions of those OS.

 

 

Hope this helps to sort out the problem.

 

SGFC
Posts: 762
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Registered: ‎07-02-2009

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications

Here are some screenshots of the problem.

 

Before Rebootless Patch;

Untitled.png

 

After Rebootless Patch;

Untitleda.png

 

(Yes I realize the times in the screenshots make it look backwards. But I took the one with all of the systray icons after rebooting my PC.)

 

So nVidia control panel, Everio HD camcorder and Windows Action Center are missing and do not return after a "rebootless" patch.

Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit / Norton Internet Security 2014
Doctor9fan
Posts: 229
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Registered: ‎12-29-2008

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications

Same here after applying any patch two icons never return - nVidia graphics & synaptics touchpad - leaving a reboot the only option to get them back. Using Windows 8  pro 32bit.

When I had Windows 7 64bit not many of the icons returned one of which was Norton itself.

Virginia/Doctor9fan.
Windows 8.1 64bit, Kindle Fire HD, iPhone 5s.
Symantec Employee
PieterV
Posts: 518
Registered: ‎07-15-2008

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications

Our rebootless patching uses a Windows feature called the restart manager.

See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/cc948910(v=vs.85).aspx

 

During the update process, explorer.exe (the windows shell) is restarted.

This allows us to update our shell extensions without the user needing to logout or reboot.

 

Restarting explorer is a technique used by many applications that use shell extensions.

 

Any application that paints a tray icon must be prepared to repaint the tray icon when the shell starts or is restarted.

Most properly written application will have no problem repainting their tray icons when explorer restart.

 

If you have specific applications that fail to repaint the tray icon, please refer the software vendor to the following documentation, specifically "RegisterWindowMessage(TEXT("TaskbarCreated"))".

 

See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/cc144179(v=vs.85).aspx

 

Pieter

SGFC
Posts: 762
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Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications


PieterV wrote:

If you have specific applications that fail to repaint the tray icon, please refer the software vendor to the following documentation, specifically "RegisterWindowMessage(TEXT("TaskbarCreated"))".

 

See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/cc144179(v=vs.85).aspx

 

Pieter


Do you really think nVidia, JVC or Microsoft will listen to me? I don't think so.

 

At this point since Symantec is willing to do nothing. Is there a way to disable "rebootless" patching?

Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit / Norton Internet Security 2014
SendOfJive
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Registered: ‎02-07-2009

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications


SGFC wrote:
Is there a way to disable "rebootless" patching?

Please see the following:

 

Turning on or turning off Apply updates only on reboot

 

WLP
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Registered: ‎09-06-2012

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications

A quick logout and log in will usually solve the issue without the need of a reboot.  So after the patch, log out of Windows then log back in.

When in doubt, uninstall / reinstall :smileywink:

Windows 7 SP1 (64 bit), Norton Internet Security 2013, Internet Explorer 10, SpywareBlaster
huwyngr
Posts: 21,585
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Registered: ‎04-13-2008

Re: Applying Patch and Restarting Applications


SGFC wrote:
 

Do you really think nVidia, JVC or Microsoft will listen to me? I don't think so.

 

At this point since Symantec is willing to do nothing. Is there a way to disable "rebootless" patching?



Symantec is following a Windows guideline and using a function Windows provides; it does provide a workaround; what more is needed?

 

This is not the first time that Norton has been blamed for problems that turned out to be caused by the failure of other parties to follow Windows protocols .... check back to when Norton 360 went from V2 to V3 and context menu use caused crashes ....



Hugh