06-16-2012 01:36 PM
gwm wrote:"What should I do? ALWAYS face issues with Norton or move after 3 years to another one (kaspersky)??? "
Norton cares most about the ignorant users--The users that just let the program cruise on automatic. That is Norton's "Bread & Butter". We (Those who want to have control over their privacy) are the "Questionable" people. We are the ones that "must be doing something that isn't entirely legal". Remember this is the brave new world in which if you have nothing to hide then you are an OK person. If you want any customized privacy...
..Then you must be "Up to Something".
THAT is the bottom line.
And that's a load of ..... baloney .... with apologies to an inofffensive sausage ....
06-16-2012 02:46 PM
huwyngr wrote:
gwm wrote:"What should I do? ALWAYS face issues with Norton or move after 3 years to another one (kaspersky)??? "
Norton cares most about the ignorant users--The users that just let the program cruise on automatic. That is Norton's "Bread & Butter". We (Those who want to have control over their privacy) are the "Questionable" people. We are the ones that "must be doing something that isn't entirely legal". Remember this is the brave new world in which if you have nothing to hide then you are an OK person. If you want any customized privacy...
..Then you must be "Up to Something".
THAT is the bottom line.
And that's a load of ..... baloney .... with apologies to an inofffensive sausage ....
That's business.
06-16-2012 04:49 PM
gwm wrote:
huwyngr wrote:
gwm wrote:"What should I do? ALWAYS face issues with Norton or move after 3 years to another one (kaspersky)??? "
Norton cares most about the ignorant users--The users that just let the program cruise on automatic. That is Norton's "Bread & Butter". We (Those who want to have control over their privacy) are the "Questionable" people. We are the ones that "must be doing something that isn't entirely legal". Remember this is the brave new world in which if you have nothing to hide then you are an OK person. If you want any customized privacy...
..Then you must be "Up to Something".
THAT is the bottom line.
And that's a load of ..... baloney .... with apologies to an inofffensive sausage ....
That's business.
It is certainly not Norton's business model if you read the messages in these forums -- I've never seen them blame the user nor have I seen anyone quicker to admit a bug and even to having dropped the ball.
The number of users requiring the number of firewall rules that break the module is very small compared with the number of users to whom this does not happen. That is a fact.
That a small number of users need this extension is NOT their fault and Norton have never said it was.
That they did not foresee that some number would need this is unfortunate but S**t happens especially in complex programming.
Norton are the only people who know how much interaction there is between any changes needed and the rest of the program and what is at risk if what seems a simple dimensional change in fact upsets something of widespread importance.
Since it is not in their interest to not fix a problem and since someone I trust absolutely has said they are working to achieve this then it's a busines model I wish everyone would follow.
06-20-2012 07:18 PM - edited 06-20-2012 07:25 PM
huwyngr wrote:
gwm wrote:
huwyngr wrote:
gwm wrote:"What should I do? ALWAYS face issues with Norton or move after 3 years to another one (kaspersky)??? "
Norton cares most about the ignorant users--The users that just let the program cruise on automatic. That is Norton's "Bread & Butter". We (Those who want to have control over their privacy) are the "Questionable" people. We are the ones that "must be doing something that isn't entirely legal". Remember this is the brave new world in which if you have nothing to hide then you are an OK person. If you want any customized privacy...
..Then you must be "Up to Something".
THAT is the bottom line.
And that's a load of ..... baloney .... with apologies to an inofffensive sausage ....
That's business.
It is certainly not Norton's business model if you read the messages in these forums -- I've never seen them blame the user nor have I seen anyone quicker to admit a bug and even to having dropped the ball.
The number of users requiring the number of firewall rules that break the module is very small compared with the number of users to whom this does not happen. That is a fact.
That a small number of users need this extension is NOT their fault and Norton have never said it was.
That they did not foresee that some number would need this is unfortunate but S**t happens especially in complex programming.
Norton are the only people who know how much interaction there is between any changes needed and the rest of the program and what is at risk if what seems a simple dimensional change in fact upsets something of widespread importance.
Since it is not in their interest to not fix a problem and since someone I trust absolutely has said they are working to achieve this then it's a busines model I wish everyone would follow.
Whether the number of users who experience this issue is 3 or 30,000 is insignificant...
What is significant is that it is a feature that IS broken and was first reported last November 18th.
There have been several product updates\patches in that 8 month period and NONE have addressed this issue.
The ONLY thing regarding this specific problem, that we (as customers\end users) are getting is the occasional posting from an employee that it is being worked on and as soon as a solution is found, it will be posted.
06-20-2012 11:28 PM
I double what the poster above me has said.
However Symantec does not know how many people have this problem. Remember probably most of the people on this forum are tech savvy and those that aren't feel comfortable reaching out and know the forums are a great way to go, instead of just depending on the limited knowledge base *cough*. Once again no offense to tech support but most users might have problems using live support due to language barries/accents/misunderstandings. Others might be willing to let them take control of their computers. And others maybe have been told by tech support to reinstall and it will go away and figuring that if tech support says a reinstall should fix it and it didn't, maybe there is something wrong with their computer or OS.
Every tech person I have spoke to so far didn't know of the problem nor that people used the program controls or that there was a limit to where it would crash.
Right now I have to fear that Norton is only 1/2 fixing it, since they sure don't want to put a large team on what is essentially a product in its last few months of use, they are devoting the majority of the staff to 2013. As another poster said just get 2013 when it comes out. Which could be Norton attitude as well. The other problem is that you read the 2013 forums they seem to have the issue there. If it is as difficult as they say, where will put the best and most talented as well as number of people on, hint not 2012.
06-20-2012 11:36 PM
I just looked and my polite letter to Tim was deleted, as I am sure I did not type it up before the 13th and so it. I don't know if it was deleted or not since I can't find it (and I could be blind) I have to assume my attempt to be polite was considered unsuited for leaving up. If it is present then please disregard, if it has been removed, just tells you more about Norton.
06-21-2012 09:55 AM
TheSaber007 wrote:I just looked and my polite letter to Tim was deleted, as I am sure I did not type it up before the 13th and so it. I don't know if it was deleted or not since I can't find it (and I could be blind) I have to assume my attempt to be polite was considered unsuited for leaving up. If it is present then please disregard, if it has been removed, just tells you more about Norton.
Correction, ST -- it was not deleted but the subject was changed in order to better reflect what your messagerelates to:
It's still there:
and I'm confident you will get an answer since the person who changed the subject is well up in the Norton heirarchy.
06-21-2012 05:51 PM
"If it is present then please disregard"
hence that phrase, but I was unaware it had been renamed. However I still wish and hope that the individual who I wont name just in case this message has to be edited, did pass it along to Tim or if he is the new contact for this issue I would prefer not getting a personal message via PM/e-mail, but by this forum, as I am not wanting special treatment but to see all of us having this issue find some sort of contact with Norton as I said even once a week would be nice. Right now I haven't been able to set my brand new alienware laptop or reinstall my self-built Windows 7 64Bit Desktop because I don't want to put 2011 on only to uninstall it for 2012 or 2013. Anyone who has worked with computers know that no program fully removes all traces of its presence in the registry or hard drive, not even Nortons own special supplemental uninstaller that is suppose to wipe all traces of anything Norton. I know as I have found over 2 dozen entries.
Also installing, uninstalling, can lead to a fragmented unoptimized regsitry (since reg tools do not work and can do more harm than good) and an overall slowdown in boot/read/write/search and maybe even stability doing the removal process, I tend to avoid installing a version that I know I am going to just uninstall in under 5 months or even 8 months (judgement call). When I do fresh installs or fresh builds I put the most current software on or wait. However since Norton is suppose to fill the security roles it is designed for, you can see how not having it working can mess things up.
06-21-2012 06:27 PM
Sabre,
A feature of the forums that you may not be aware of but which could have helped you on the disappearing message is that if you click on your name in the box where your avatar is it will take you to your personal information page where you will find listed active links to all the messages you have posted (a few at first but there's a View All there too.
You could have scanned down that list, as I just did, and spotted your message, under its new name, clicked on that and seen it and who had renamed it.
You need not worry about naming Tim Lopez -- the only names that do get removed by the moderators are the names of staff on the separate Norton OnLIne Support, like CHAT. If you have a complaint about somone there in particular here is not the place for it to be dealt with but a Norton Staffer will help resolve it with you in Private. Just an aside for your information.
I'm glad to see that you are in my camp about registry cleaners although I don't know of any valid data that shows that so-called "fragmentation of the registry" has any measurable affect. It's like the Loch Ness Monster --- everyone talks about it; some say they have seen it; but no-one has been able to show us one!
06-22-2012 08:18 PM
This goes all the way back to the early days of the registry in win98. The way they described fragmentation was like this:
Picture building a book shelf. You build it only when you add new books to it. So lets say you have a bookshelf that has 4 levels and each holds 20 books. Now lets say that you decide to remove 10 books aka programs. They leave their footprint behind in the form of dust and if in the sun, the suntan line on the bookshelf (these are the leftovers from programs that don't truly uninstall every single thing from the registry - after all a company isn't going to spend many days and work hours working on a perfected uninstall program, after all that isn't what they want you to do with their product, also patches/updates/hotfixes will always cause new stuff to be left behind). Anyhow. Now you have instead of 4 levels with 20 books, you have 3 levels with 20 books and another level with 10 books (20-10). Now since you obviously won't want to cut the space those 10 books created from your bookshelf, so you leave the space in there. There is your fragmentation. Now when you scan the shelf for the book you want, you still will initially scan the first 10 books and will for a second or two start to scan the empty space only to realize you have nothing there, hence the slight delay in the performance due to fragmentation. Now the next 10 books you buy just won't fit in the space that is open (only way to explain why registry entires don't overwrite and fill in the space left behind by old/deleted registry keys - unlike a hard drive which will overwrite unused or vacated space).
So you build a 5th level. However you still have that gap of 10 books on one of the levels. Since those 10 new books had to go to another shelf you have now increased the scanning time of your book titles.
So the gap on the shelf is your fragmentation and loss of performance. You might see a reduction in the actual size of the registry, MB wise. However unless every single entry from that program is removed you have keys being loaded that don't need to be, hence a loss in performance. Now supposedly Win 7 was suppose to do a better job of compacting itself to fill in these emtpy spaces.` However Win 7 can only handle the most basic of entries and only those that actually are ones that they are aware of. For example they don't know all the entries Norton makes, Mcafee, Paintshop Pro, and so on. Sure they could try to run one of dozens of supposed "registry change logging" programs but none are perfect, trust me I have tried nearly all that were out there and none were ever the same in catching.
Also don't forget that programs leave behind in the registry (depending on the program of course) any former serial numbers, activations, etc. Since I have NDA with several companies that use this I can't provide company or programs that this happens with. In some cases it is simply used to help you reinstall later, however in other cases it is used as an effective anti-piracy method, as you will not be able to find exactly where the serial number that has been deemed invalid is being stored. So you can't get rid of it and put a new one its place or do other tricks once the program has invalidated that serial number.
So there will always be space left behind in the reg, now multiply that space by 2 years of uninstalling and reinstalling applications, drivers, etc. and you can see the mess that is left behind and created. So everytime someone uninstalls NIS and reinstalls it they are creating minute gaps, which that moment do not have any impact on performance. But since it will certainly not be the only program you install, uninstall and reinstall in your OS lifetime, it will eventually add up.
Now if this explaination has changed since Windows 7 Sp1 has been released then I need to update my personal KB on the registry. Since registry "fixing" programs are totally off base and inaccurate. If you don't believe this (not you huwyngr) do a fresh clean install of windows xp, vista or 7 (32or64) then install the registry scanning/fixing/error detecting program. Run it and it will find dozens of "errors" "broken links" "orphaned" or whatever wording they use. Now unless you are intimately familiar with the entire Windows Registry (to be honest I don't think even Bill Gates could tear down a registry and tell you exactly what is or isn't needed) you have to investigate each and every key they named as having a problem. There IS NO guarantee that deleting that key will make any difference. That is one reason the reg scanning/fixing programs have never really provided clear guidance on which entries can truly be erased. The company knows that it too great a liability that they get you only 1/2 to the solution and then suggest you back up the registry/computer before you make any changes and why they make sure you know in the EULA and in other dialogs of the program that they aren't responsible.
Anyhow, back to the real issue, you would think that Symantec/Norton would take a look at the 2011 program where the program control works properly, then do a comparison of code that could affect it in 2012 to zero in and eliminate the problem. Since they are holding the code in their hands and on their computers, they can instantly test a change in code to see first how it affects NIS and so on. It shows that they didn't really test their program out to the fullest extent or that because they are running "isolated" pre-configured computers they are not seeing the program in the real world and hence it is not a surprise they were not able to recreate the issue. They should have been all over the problem the moment the first person reported it. They should have done a remote session and see the error. Then issue the NRnR tool, make sure no other companies security software is on it and then have them recreate for the tech. If that person can recreate it all the time, then if another person does as well they should already be building a huge database of info on the problem. Since they understand better than probably 99% of us what is actually going on in the code or in the background when you push on the Program Control button.
So what is a person suppose to do, uninstall 2012, install 2011 for now, then maybe if we are lucky, in August they fix the problem, so you uninstall 2011 and reinstall 2012, then in Sept 2013 comes out and offers better protection than 2012, so you uninstall 2012 and install 2013. You are almost certain to leave fragments from each version in your registry and one of them could actually come back to haunt you in the form of an error/crash/bsod that references some other program and that the other company can't seem to find what is causing the problem. Plus with Norton making no export import key for program control rules, all those entries have to be re-entered in 2011, 2012 and 2013 and that is assuming each install works out perfect.
