Other Norton Products

[User-01]

In Norton Security Suite v5.1.0.29, the list of programs in the Startup Manager does not match the list of programs reported by Microsoft Windows 7 Professional x64's msconfig program. In my test case Norton lists 11 programs in Startup Manager, while the Startup tab in msconfig lists 12. Further, one of the programs which is listed in both is listed correctly as disabled by msconfig and incorrectly listed as enabled in Norton.

A related post from Norton Security Suite v4 is available at:

http://community.norton.com/t5/Other-Norton-Products/Diagnostic-Report-Startup-Programs-Startup-Mana...

 

[User-01]

For completeness, I have also included the Diagnostic Report from the same system as the msconfig and Startup Manager screenshots. Note that the report includes a blank line. Perhaps should should include the content of the disabled startup item?

[yank Trojan Terminator]

Hi (again) User-01,

Since our last discusssion in this area back in Nov/Dec of 2010, I have upgraded my XP system to Win 7 (Home Premium X64) and am also running NSS version 5.1.0.29.  I personally have 9 items listed in my NSS Statup Manager and have the same 9 items listed on my Startup Tab  (msconfig).

I also checked my Diagnostic Report (expanded startup Items) and I have the same 9 items listed - and also have a blank line as the 5th line on the page. 

After reviewing your entries and comparing them to mine, I see that you HAD Windows Liv (I'm guess WLM) enabled as a startup item at one time, but disabled it on 08/18/2011 @ 9:0....  I may be out in left field, but if WLM is not checked on the startup tab, then it should not be showing as a startup item in NSS.

One thing you may want to try is to enable Windows Liv on the startup tab and see if NSS then reports it as a startup item - thus giving you your missing item as reported by NSS.  Not sure if a reboot would be required or not for NSS to pick it up.

[User-01]

Thanks for checking the reproducibility of this issue yank. Comparing the behavior in different environments is extremely helpful. Kudos.

With your insight that items disabled via msconfig are not reported in Norton Startup Manager, I performed a more detailed analysis. In my original post I incorrectly stated that "Further, one of the programs which is listed in both is listed correctly as disabled by msconfig and incorrectly listed as enabled in Norton." I had assumed "Windows Live Mesh" (actually WLSync.exe) in the msconfig list was "OfficeSyncProcess" (actually MSOSYNC.exe) in the Norton Startup Manager list. I created an Excel spreadsheet to compare the names of the executables and find that the "Startup Item" column in msconfig has little correspondence with the "Program Name" column in Norton Startup Manager. I disabled a second program via msconfig and confirmed that:

Startup Items disabled in msconfig are not reported as Off in Norton Startup Manager.

I consider this a defect in Norton Startup Manager, as every indication in the user interface is that the list is comprehensive. The existence of the On/Off column implies that disabled items would be shown as Off rather than not shown at all.

I have not yet added the Diagnostic Report to my spreadsheet to check it more comprehensively, but certainly the blank line should not be there.

[dickevans Super RootKit Eradicator]

Peanut gallery here,

you said

"I consider this a defect in Norton Startup Manager, as every indication in the user interface is that the list is comprehensive. The existence of the On/Off column implies that disabled items would be shown as Off rather than not shown at all."

Please put a reboot between checking the changes being made in one area before checking them in the other. I suspect that the programs do not keep continuous track of what's happening during a session but do make updates/changes at the start of each session.

Hope this helps

[User-01]

Thanks for the idea "dickevans." I performed a reboot and confirmed that startup items disabled with msconfig are not shown in Norton's Startup Manager.

[dickevans Super RootKit Eradicator]

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User-01 wrote:

Thanks for the idea "dickevans." I performed a reboot and confirmed that startup items disabled with msconfig are not shown in Norton's Startup Manager.

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Hi,

Sounds like I'm going to agree - it's a bug.

I would expect agreement after a reboot so that both get a chance to check things out and adjust their reports.

The only other thought that comes to mind is a post I read earlier that mentioned that there was a difference in some numbers because one was reporting all and one was reporting only for the individual user. This late on a Friday afternoon it's about to give me a brain cramp.

Thanks for checking

[DaveH]

I have to agree with yank.

If something is disabled in MSCONFIG, it is not set to start.  That makes it not a startup item.

Since any program can be set to start, how can the Norton startup manager list items that are not set to start?

Just because something was disabled through MSCONFIG and remains listed there so it can be re-enabled is besides the point, the program is no longer a startup item so it can't be managed.

Here is another example,

I have some programs set to start by shortcuts in the Start > Programs > Startup folder.

They correctly show up in MSCONFIG.

Now if I delete these shortcuts the programs no longer autostart and since they are not startup items they are no longer listed in MSCONFIG.

By your reasoning they should be listed somehow?

Dave

[User-01]

My conceptualization of startup programs is based on "Controlling Startup Programs with the System Configuraiton Utility" on pages 173-175 of "Windows 7 Inside Out" by Ed Bott, Carl Siechert, and Craig Stinson. The convention is that programs that have been configured as startup programs by their installers but that have been disabled by msconfig should be considered startup programs that are disabled or off. Therefore, the set of disabled programs does not consitute the set of all programs that do not start at boot, rather it is the set that would be enabled if the user took no action. Another defintion is the difference between a "Normal startup" mode in msconfig versus a "Selective startup."

I see that disabling a startup program in msconfig that was set via the HKLM\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run registry key causes the string to no longer show in that registry entry as reported by regedit. Presumably msconfig modified the registry so that the disabled keys are no longer in the startup sets. I suspect that Norton is enumerating the startup sets and then showing the results. Since the disabled keys are no longer in those sets Norton does not show them. For Norton Startup Manager to be consistent with Windows 7 it should be showing the entries disabled via msconfig as Off in the Startup Manager interface. To do this the implementers may need to idenitfy the way msconfig records disabled programs and reflect that information in the Norton Startup Manager. Otherwise, Norton Startup Manager will be reporting incomplete information, as it does now.

[DaveH]

I can see your point, but I think that would be wanting a startup manager to be more of a "MSCONFIG" viewer than just managing the startup of programs.

As you said if MSCONFIG moves the item out of a standard startup or "run" location then the Norton startup manager would have to also be a MSCONFIG "Viewer" to mirror the configuration.

I don't know where you would draw the line, as you know there are some very "unconventional" places in the registry that can be used to startup programs as well and I don't know if Nortons tracks thoughs.   Windows 7 also lets you delay the start of services and some of those services can also start programs.

I actually don't know the intended behaviour, I'm just assuming that the disabled it's are not shown because they are not really startup items and therefore cannot be managed.

But I'm sure we can get a clarification from one of the Symantec employees and if disabled items were not intended to be shown for the reason I assumed it could be a helpful product suggestion for the future.

If by design disabled items are not intended to be listed I'm sure they went through an internal debate about it.

Dave