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Kudos3 Stats

LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I've had Norton and Truecrypt together for about a week now and they worked together fine, they both stayed out of each others way.. Yesterday, that changed. No, it might of even started the day before yesterday. Allow me to start there since it might help find out the issue. So, on that day, I downloaded a file, Norton flagged it(WS.Reputation.1) and removed it, I disabled Norton and downloaded it again thinking Norton made a mistake, ran it on VirusTotal.com, and 7 anti-virus programs detected danger(most of them called it a Trojan).and the file stopped being read after  the 7th positive detection. So I deleted it, ran Norton immediately, downloaded and ran Malwarebytes and they both showed no Trogan on the computer. My computer started showing symptoms of a Trojan(slowing down, not being slow to load websites, etc) this was while Norton was doing a full system scan. After the scan came up clean, file thumbnails soon started going blank(they had a blank page icon) and some even vanished all together, like Recycle Bins. Even my Chrome browser stopped loading, it wouldn't even load the settings page. So, I panicked, restarted the system, logged back on and guess what? Norton was gone. It failed to start and wouldn't respond to my request to run. It was showing up on Task manager's list of programs running but not on the list of active programs. 8 or so minutes later, just as I am about to restart, Norton suddenly ran an autofix. Then I restarted.again and everything was back to normal.

Forward to a day later, I try and mount a PNP Truecrypt folder to view a few documents before I leave overseas, and just as I opened the mounted folder and started to scroll, I got a BSOD. The error said "PNP_DETECTED_FATAL_ERROR." I thought it was just a weird mistake, so I logged on, and tried again...same error. I then fitted with the settings and tried to get my files out of that Mount but everytime I even tried to move a file an inch, I got the BSOD. I couldn't open the folder after mounting because I'd get a BSOD. I got 8 of them before I gave up and ran a BSOD viewer. They all showed that the driver that caused it was either SRTSP64.SYS or BHDrvx64.sys and it originates in ntoskrnl.exe. The BSOD's also shared the same bug check code of 0x000000ca and parameter 1 of 00000000`00000002. 

I elected to then uninstall Norton, and remove the files. It worked, I got no BSOD. So I assumed the issue was over and mounted them again then installed Norton back.

Forward to today, I move the Mount to an old external(formally internal) HDD I found. I encrypted some space on that HDD and attempted to add my files over there to the external drive so I could bring them with me overseas. The moment the files touched that HDD, BSOD! She came back. Same error, same driver, same location. What do I have to do to get Norton to get along with Truecrypt short of uninstalling Norton for a refund? I don't want to do that since I really like Norton but this is getting annoying and I don't want my brand new computer to be damaged by repeated BSOD's. 

This desktop computer is only 1.5  weeks out the box, so it can't be the computer.

Labels: ,
Accepted Solution
Kudos7 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello,

I can see some of you have already received the patch and so far the feedback is positive. For more details, you can read the official announcement here.

I'm wanted to thank you all on behalf of the Norton team for your patience while we were working on this patch. All your feedback was welcomed and will certainly be taken into consideration while we continue to focus on the constant improvement of our services and products.

Finally, I wanted to extend a special thank you to those users who were supportive and understanding of my own interventions here. It certainly is very rewarding to interact with customers who are able to keep up a good and professional relationship with their points of contact regardless of the issues that they are facing.

Have a great day!

Replies

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

And to respond to huwyngr's comment: in the end it is impossible to ensure that a fix works on every possible combination of hardware and software

That is not what I said ....

people seriously underestimate or ignore what is involved 

 I'm not going to argue about every comment I make but it is nice when I'm correctly reported.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Unbelievable. I wish I requested a refund when I had a chance. I hate being lied to by people that I give my money to and trust. This is unacceptable. 

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Has this issue been fixed yet? 

Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I recently down-graded per this forum and Liliana to NIS 2014 (for three computers) which worked perfectly on the first computer with Truecrypt.  But then 2014 always did.  But When I downgraded my second computer (out of three that use TC) the expiration date switched to just 30 days on both computers.  I re-activated Norton, but the expiration date remained 30 days.... originally it was 365.  I spent an hour with Norton Support and they were able to correct this problem... but it took some time for them to figure things out.  So pay attention to the expiration date in your Norton downgrade - make sure it stays correct!

Also anyone who has NOT contacted Norton Support about the Encryption BSOD problem SHOULD DO SO.  We need to bug the heck out of Norton on this or it will not get fixed.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello Goreski,

You misunderstood our workaround procedure. You are only to be provided with a NIS key for a limited time, as a replacement of your Norton Security product. This will be extended for as long as needed until the fix is released, but not more. We cannot provide both NIS and NS subscriptions simultaneously for a period of a year, nor is it needed, since I'm sure you will want to reinstall Norton Security as soon as possible. Please come back to me via private message so we can clarify any additional questions.

To the rest of the community:

I wanted to let you all know that we read every update on this thread so your messages are not ignored, nor is this issue. I've hesitated to post an update, because all I can say is reinforce what was said before: we are working to release this fix as quickly as we can, but if that helps in any way to reassure that we are actively working on this, then this is my update.

I will write a message here as soon as the update is out. We do understand the urgency and the concerns of all the affected customers. Do feel free to contact me by private message if you have any specific questions pertaining your account, or if there is anything I can help with.

I also wanted to thank the help provided by our community contributors and Gurus and thank those who have been patiently waiting for the new update.

Have a good day

Liliana Gaspar
Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Over 3 months for a fix is completely unacceptable for a problem of this nature when it wasn't causing any issues before your "update".

A week ago one of your "updates" caused Internet Explorer to crash when opening.  That was fixed within 6 hours.

Also, I still have old backup sets that I'm unable to delete since I "updated" to Norton Security with Backup from Norton 360.  I followed your tech advise to reinstall Norton 360 to delete them (which is ridiculous to begin with), but I still wasn't able to delete them.  Please fix this issue as well and make your backup service more stable and dependable. 

I'll be looking at switching to different anti-virus software in a few months when I'm not so busy if these issues aren't resolved.

Thanks!

Kudos2 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hi jay007,
If you are having any issue with the temporary replacement product/ backup sets, I humbly request you to create threads in appropriate subforum (backup). That would be a better idea to solve them...
BTW, a lot of us are eagerly waiting for the fix like you. Thats all for now....
Good luck....
regards, CV | There is no ONE TOUCH KEY to security . Be alert and vigilant. . | Always have a Backup Plan!
Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I am not condoning the long fix time for this problem. My wife has it when opening MS Office 2010 which opens a virtual drive and the BSOD happens. Had to revert back to NS 2014 in her case. Yes, this has been going one for a LONG time.

However, Norton is NOT alone with problems and LOOONNNG fix time.

I use McAfee LiveSafe which came with my new computer. Sometime last summer I discovered that its Real Time Scanning caused Thunderbird to 'slow down' on handling e-mails. This has NOT been fixed in the product as of yet and it has been many more months that this problem with LiveSafe has occurred. I'd assume the percentage of people that have that problem (and are aware of it, TB still would 'work' albeit slower on delete of messages) are probably the same as this one, although I'd call this one more severe. The McAfee problem IS fixed I'm told in the Beta (and I'll not use it) and should be released 'soon'. Additionally another annoying problem with its 'Vulnerability Scanner' is there, also fixed in the beta. Still, it appears my e-mails are not protected against virus containment in them. Of course once they do try to run it will be picked up. Still, a long time being known and no relief yet.

Like I said, I am not condoning Symantec's slow resolution to NS, but just alerting you to the fact that other security suites have problems as well (I can't vouch for every one but I know McAfee does). We can argue the severity of those problems, but that is not the point. Fixes are slow coming, especially IF there is a work-around it seems and damage can be mitigated such as here where going back a version 'solves' the problem.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Liliana, since you say that Symantec is reading this thread I figured I'd chime in.  I have been patiently waiting for a solution to this problem since I ran into it near the end of last year.  For me, I keep most of my financial records protected in an encrypted container and Truecrypt/Veracrypt are very common among security professionals.  I've even dealt with two rounds of talking with your completely uninformed and inept 'professionals' on Norton Chat who insisted they could fix the problem by remoting into my computer and then forcing me to BSOD it twice.  Only to tell me the fix was coming in 3-4 days and to be patient (this was about a month ago).

Unfortunately being the container for my financial records, it becomes more and more pressing as we get closer to tax time.  This moves the problem from mere nuiessence to libability very quickly, if not for you, then for for me.  Developing a fix is a matter of priorities.  If Symantec feels they have bigger fish to fry and this is a minor problem affeting a subset of customers that Symantec can continue to push off, I hope you will re-evaluate that assumption.

As a senior security engineer at a midsized technology company, we have about 1700 workstations and 500 servers running Endpoint Protection.  We also have enterprise vault and netbackup extensively deployed.  The reason we stick with it, is that it is reliable.  Endpoint Protection isn't the most aggressive product on the market, but our applications work when we need them to.  Employees ask me all the time what I use on my home equipment and I tell them Norton.  If the fix for this problem is moving to a different product (you've mentioned NIS) then I think you might consider that many of us will try other reputable products from a competitor instead.  Out of respect for your thread I'll leave them nameless, but most of them have no problem submitting their products for the head to head comparisons that Symantec refuses to participate in.  This small problem affecting a subset of customers is now impacting your reputation as a company.  I hope Symantec will step up and prioritize this, because there are reprocussions.

Thanks,


Andy

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Quick observation & question ...

This is very long thread which I have been only casually following (since I am fortunately unaffected by the issue - meaning I'm not presently utilizing a file encryption system).

But I have noted with interest the reports about other encryption systems (other than Truecrypt) also being affected.

My curiosity at this point is as to whether or not the "OS integrated" Windows EFS is also impacted?  I don't recall seeing it being mentioned (either pro or con) anywhere in the thread (thus far).

Normally I'd consider giving the EFS a quick try/test in order to find out - But since this is a "BSOD Level" concern, I'm rather loathe to risk potentially borking a functional system just to find out...

Kind regards,

John

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

The original Windows EFS is very cumbersome and difficult to recover from in the event of a failure.  It does not appear that Bitlocker is affected, but Bitlocker wasn't really engineered to be used for containers.  So while they are both encryption systems, it's a bit more cumbersome than Truecrypt/Veracrypt for protecting smaller collections of files.  Bitlocker To Go might be the closest thing as it was meant for USB flash drives, but it also ties you to a Windows platform.  So should you ever need to access those files on another non-windows system you are SOL.

-Andy

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Thanks for the additional info Andy...

As mentioned, I've no present need of an encryption solution, but I have in the past (using Win 7/Pro) successfully utilized the incorporated EFS for certain application requirements...and was just wondering if it too was affected by this problem.

Thanks again for the input - Cheers!

John

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello

A Prayer to the Norton Gods to fix the problem soon as it has been going on for a long time.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 2004 N 360 22.20.5.39 Chrome latest version.
Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I reached out to Norton support on this problem today. The tech proceeded to assume control of my computer, rebooted it in Safe Mode without successfully implementing networking or Internet drivers (effectively locking himself out) and then proceeded to inform me (when we reconnected) that TrueCrypt was the cause. I decided not to bother arguing with him, but the evidence is clear. TrueCrypt works when disabling Norton Security. That's the workaround for now.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello

Scroll back to Liliana's posts. She provides a work around. PM her for more information.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 2004 N 360 22.20.5.39 Chrome latest version.
Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

It would be nice if Norton could stop treating us like idiots. Truecrypt is not to blame. I've tried FolderLocker encryption and that too results in a BSOD when I try and use it. I don't know if Norton doesn't communicate with their entire consumer service staff or if Norton is just incompetent, but I am tired of seeing Norton blame Truecrypt when it's obvious that this impacts other encryption software. The work around is easy(disable auto protect and sonar since one of those two are causing this), but it gets tedious after a while and becomes pointless when Norton decides to reactivate the options. 

Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Lolicon:

It would be nice if Norton could stop treating us like idiots. Truecrypt is not to blame. I've tried FolderLocker encryption and that too results in a BSOD when I try and use it. I don't know if Norton doesn't communicate with their entire consumer service staff or if Norton is just incompetent, but I am tired of seeing Norton blame Truecrypt when it's obvious that this impacts other encryption software. The work around is easy(disable auto protect and sonar since one of those two are causing this), but it gets tedious after a while and becomes pointless when Norton decides to reactivate the options. 

This (admittedly long) thread has already clearly pointed out the problem is with MANY encryption packages - TrueCrypt, VeraCrypt, SafeHouse, i.e probably any program that tries to mount a virtual disk/drive.  So we have long ago established that it is not limited to TrueCrypt.

Furthermore, while I may have missed some things along the way, I do not recall a single instance where Norton blamed TrueCrypt.  If they have done so, then I too would take umbrage at that. But I don't recall that ever happening?

Again, none of this is meant to exonerate Norton for what indeed seems an inordinately long time to fix this now well-known issue, but let's keep our facts straight at least.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello

Disabling Sonar and Auto-Protect will put your computer into danger of getting malware. Then you could end up with a worse problem if you end up with malware which could cause your computer to not start.That was not the work around suggested by Liliana.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 2004 N 360 22.20.5.39 Chrome latest version.
Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

floplot:

Hello

That was not the work around suggested by Liliana.

We should really stop calling this a "workaround". It's as much of a workaround as using a competitor's product with a free trial period. In fact, a prominent competitor offers a 60-day trial period for their "Internet Security" suite. At least with that, we get current technology, as opposed to last year's technology from Norton.

Secondly, asking a customer to uninstall the current version, re-install the last year's version, talking to someone to get the license extended, and THEN when the issue is fixed (hopefully before the end of 2015) re-installing the new version is not really a "workaround" in the traditional sense. If that's the case, then the competitor also offers a "workaround" for Norton's BSOD defect (and for 60 days!). 

What's most annoying about this situation is the lack of information. As paying customers, we expect a company like Norton to be more upfront regarding WHEN we can expect a solution. We all know that there are major and minor release cycles (and continuous cycles in some companies), where the dates are usually pretty well-defined. And at this point, the PM and the front-end support should have a pretty good idea (>80%) of whether the fix is going to be in the next patch and WHEN it's going to be. Pushing this information under the carpet is not very good.

For some of us, buying a different subscription from another company for $50-70 is not as bad as the time wasted in having to hunt down these issues. It simply isn't worth the time. In the future, please just be more up front about these kind of issues (and proper prioritization by the PM and timely releases of fixes would be a bonus!).

Thanks.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Phoeniyx:
We should really stop calling this a "workaround". It's as much of a workaround as using a competitor's product with a free trial period. In fact, a prominent competitor offers a 60-day trial period for their "Internet Security" suite. At least with that, we get current technology, as opposed to last year's technology from Norton.

Well reasoned and well said.  

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I am so frustrated now. I had this problem since 12/18/2014 and made my first post in this forum. Since then I have been quite, just follow this forum and hoping it will be fixed soon. I appreciate Liliana's suggestion and provides a temporarily "solution". All this time I have mounted TrueCrypt volume in read mode and turn off Norton if I want to update data.

I myself is a software developer for 30+ years, I understand the process to fix bug, regardless how obvious or simple the bug may be, Murphy's law always right. You just have to test it again and again, which takes time.  I am not criticizing it takes such a long time and still not having a fix, but I am frustrated by not knowing what to expect. l wish Norton would just give us an estimate such as 1Q, 2Q  ..... and update us frequently, so I can plan my work accordingly.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Phoeniyx:
For some of us, buying a different subscription from another company for $50-70 is not as bad as the time wasted in having to hunt down these issues. It simply isn't worth the time. In the future, please just be more up front about these kind of issues (and proper prioritization by the PM and timely releases of fixes would be a bonus!).

So this might be a bit tricky in the Norton community, but since we are all here presumably as Norton users (and perhaps up to now, Norton fans?), I would like to pose a question to the crowd. A lot of talk has surfaced about competitors' products in light of this current issue. Since we all chose Norton for one reason or another, I wonder what products you would now consider as being equivalent/better etc and if you were to abandon Norton and Symantec altogether right now, what would you all use as a replacement?

I know there are a lot of pretty good suites out there but I don't have real-world experience with many of them. Norton has always been a "comfortable" choice for me. But maybe all things must pass. 

If I am even allowed to ask this in a Norton forum, for those who either have or are contemplating a switch of products, may I ask what you are leaning towards? 

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

GeneJockey:
I know there are a lot of pretty good suites out there but I don't have real-world experience with many of them. Norton has always been a "comfortable" choice for me. But maybe all things must pass. 

      If I am even allowed to ask this in a Norton forum, for those who either have or are contemplating a switch of products, may I ask what you are leaning towards? 

I'm guessing specifying another company's product is against the rules and would get the reply removed and user possibly banned. However I would recommend you check out the head to head tests at av-comparatives.org and av-test.org. There are a number of products that report excellent performance and capability.

-Andy

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

We should really stop calling this a "workaround". It's as much of a workaround as using a competitor's product with a free trial period.

Why?

Merriam-Webster: 

Definition of WORK-AROUND

:  a plan or method to circumvent a problem (as in computer software) without eliminating it

Oxford Dictionaries: 

 Definition of workaround in English:

noun

Computing

A method for overcoming a problem or limitation in a program or system.

Lilliana's offer is precisely all of that offered freely until the fix is fully tested (and it's not just TrueCrypt) on multiple different systems. 

If my car breaks down the dealer may offer me the workaround of a substitute, different car. That is a workaround for which I am grateful. In fact when my 2000 Mazda Protégé was rear-ended last year I got a current Mazda 3 which I hated .... but it was better than walking in Florida heat.

Arguments that it should not take 3 months are meaningless in the real world unless you are actually doing the work involved.

Everyone has the right to be upset but NIS is not really an inferior product to NS .... I don't believe anyone here pestered Norton to produce Norton Security as the 2015 product and certainly not as a total replacement for NIS/NAV/N360 ..... but we don't have the responsibility of running the Norton operation ...... for me it's quite enough to be a computer user!

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I would like to remind the Norton staff that many of us spend hours figuring out what was the cause of our BSOD failures... Myself I installed a new drive two days before Norton started causing forced reboots... I never gave a thought that Norton was the culprit... and thus spent a couple hours trying to figure out what was wrong.  Since I do not use Truecrypt every day, I logically thought the new drive had problems though it worked normally for two days.  I was on the verge of returning it or sending it off for exchange when I used Truecrypt and bam - BSOD failure with the new drive removed. But even then I had to methodocially troubleshoot my system step by step.  Since Norton NIS worked fine, as had all Norton products for years with Truecrypt, Norton Security was the last thing on the long list of testing.

All in all, the hours troubleshooting my main computer system, hours with Norton Support, then searching  to find this Forum and realize it was indeed a KNOWN Norton failure... and having to downgrade to Norton NIS 2014, then another hour with Norton Support once the NIS expiration date magically and unexpected changed to 30 days.... I've lost quite a few hours all because Norton has a product that is defective and destructive.

That Norton has known about this problem for months is disturbing to us all.  That unknown others may be having the BSOD failure and not know it is caused by Norton should by itself be of great concern to Norton. Any such failure in a mass commerical 'protection' program should have been patched in days, not months. Yes testing takes time.  But it does NOT take months. Norton has a large and expert staff.... they know how to patch their software, and how to test it. Every company produces failures from time to time.  Fixing them quickly is how superior companies keep their reputation and their customers.

Imagine your financial data is protected by Truecrypt (or other such software) and now you cannot retrive it, update or modify the encrypted data, and yes folks it's Tax-Time... realizing the fault is with Norton is NOT self evident. 

Everyone in this forum is computer literate and knowledgeable, so image if you will, what a normal computer user faces in just trying to figure out what the hell is happening with BSOD failures caused by Norton.  When the BSOD failure happens on my computer it is stated that it is a Plug and Play failure, there is no indication what so ever the fault is with Norton Security. 

So please Norton staff, fixing our problem is URGENT, not secondary.

The few of us here on the Forum are the lucky ones who figured out Norton was to blame.  And we have by the grace of Liliana at Norton, a work-around by returning to an old Norton product. But there are many many others out there who are experiencing the Norton BSOD and just do not have the savvy to trace it down to Norton. That Norton is causing the problem IS NOT SELF-EVIDENT to the normal computer user.

Again: Fixing problems quickly is how superior companies keep their reputation and their customers.

regards to all...

Michael Gore
San Francisco

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Michael Gore,

Thank you for succinctly summarizing the impact on all of us from this issue.  I blamed everything else before I finally narrowed down that it was Norton.  This has been a painful issue for months and is not yet resolved.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello phoeniynx

I am not a Symantec employee. I am another user like you are a user. I don't make Symantec's policies or come up with anything. I am just trying to help you users by trying to get a Symantec Employee involved in this thread and in that way get Symantec more involved in finding a solution to this problem. This is a user to user forum. Since I am a Guru, I did get Liliana involved in this thread and she is doing what she can to get this fixed. Her posts explain how things work.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 2004 N 360 22.20.5.39 Chrome latest version.
Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Goreski:

Everyone in this forum is computer literate and knowledgeable, so image if you will, what a normal computer user faces in just trying to figure out what the hell is happening with BSOD failures caused by Norton.  When the BSOD failure happens on my computer it is stated that it is a Plug and Play failure, there is no indication what so ever the fault is with Norton Security. 

...

The few of us here on the Forum are the lucky ones who figured out Norton was to blame.  And we have by the grace of Liliana at Norton, a work-around by returning to an old Norton product. But there are many many others out there who are experiencing the Norton BSOD and just do not have the savvy to trace it down to Norton. That Norton is causing the problem IS NOT SELF-EVIDENT to the normal computer user.

This is a very valid and important point. I know in my case, after two successive BSOD's,  I did a quick Google search on the error message. I was lucky - I was able with a few minutes to get to this very thread. The rest as they say... 

But I can certainly imagine how many users are out there who still have no clue why they are getting these fatal errors. We are indeed the "lucky" ones. But we are likely the tip of the iceberg and that is a very disappointing thought indeed.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Here is, what I actually did to finally solve the problem:

No major company who had sold you the software would make a big fuss not to pay back the purchase price to you (against invalidating the license, so you would have to purchase an alternative product; and there do exist many of them). They do not want to lose single customers, and would not risk any lawsuit. The anti-virus software market is not at all narrow, and companies from many countries compete on this market, take e.g. K******y from Russia, F-S****e from Finland or G-D**a from Germany as serious competitors, all of them selling world-wide. Thus, Symantec and any major company selling their products will not have any interest in ruining their reputation in this competitive environment.

I wrote a letter (yes, on paper!) to the seller of the Software, which was, in my case, Amazon Media EU S.à r.l., Luxembourg, demanding them to deliver a software version free of defects. In the European Union, the seller of any product has to guarantee that it is free of defects, regardless of whether he is producer or not, and that right cannot be derogated by any terms and conditions. However, according to the law, the seller has to be given the chance to deliver a product which is free of defects, which I did by that letter. Some call center agent called me up to inform me that Amazon would not code the product (which I know), and that they thus cannot deliver a product free of defects (which is clear). As I explained the situation, and made clear  that I would claim warranty rights - even in court, if necessary -, Amazon agreed to pay back the complete purchase price.

The advantage of using those rights is that the statutory and non-derogatory warranty rights against the seller last for six months since delivery (and two years, when the buyer can prove that the defect was an initial defect, which is assumed during the first six months period).

To be fair, Symantec in Dublin (which I had also written to) also had offered me to reimburse me with the full purchase price. Since Amazon was first, and I did not want to get back more than what I had paid, I asked Symantec not to pay, which they had confirmed.
 

Conclusion: (1) You are not bound to one single product, even not to one single product from one producer, (2) (a) if you seriously demand your money back, (b) claim your legal rights (which apply in your jurisdiction, and which you should know), (c) do not believe that all "terms and conditions" are valid before the law, and (3) if you can stand one or two rather explanatory than tricky call center agent calls, you will get your money back, without having to rely on some "voluntary money-back schemes" or any other generousity; (4) in particular, Symantec's reaction did not appear to me to be aggressive, formalistic or "evil" in any other way.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I too have looked at getting a refund recently. Frankly the requirement to send items by post to another country is outrageous and clearly serves no purpose other than to try to put people off seeking refunds. Another black mark against a company that is clearly in decline in so many ways.

Does anyone believe they are actually trying hard to fix this? I don't. There is no credible explanation for the time it has now taken with still not even a hint of a fix release date. Yes, the cause has to be identified, a fix written and it has to be tested but we're approaching the 4th month now. That is simply not credible for a competent team of technicians trying hard to solve a flaw of relatively narrow focus but with serious impact on affected users.

That only leaves incompetence or indifference. I suspect it is a bit of both. Neither fill me with much hope for the future of the product and certainly don't inspire confidence that it is, or will ever be, worthy of trusting with my digital security. NS is clearly a train wreck that should never have seen the public light of day.

It is sad to see really. I had been a Norton user for many years. I stuck with them even through the years when it was a resource hogging pig as I trusted in its' effectiveness. Even when I was forced to stop using it a couple of years ago due to a swathe of problems with Windows 8 compatibility, I maintained an interest and continued using ID safe as a standalone. I was pleased to be 'coming home' when I bought NS a couple of months ago.

Enough is enough however. When it reaches the point that you think the product is hopeless and the company is lying to you, I guess there's no point hanging around. I shall take my business, my company's business and that of those who rely on me as their unofficial 'tech advisor' elsewhere.

To those of you who plan on hanging around - I hope you get your fix soon.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Symes2011  I agree that four months is too long for a fix to this problem. I have been a programmer, system analyst and database administrator in my career. I can tell you without a doubt that it should not take this long to fix this problem. An update broke this. The update changed code. Examine the changed code and determine what broke Norton's interaction with encryption software. Frankly I do not believe that they are working on this. Our next step should be to inform potential buyers of this problem in reviews on the major sellers. I purchased Norton Security before the update that broke this but buyers should be informed of this bug and the length of time it has been without a fix. 

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

TrueCrypt, although hosted in my neutral land:

https://truecrypt.ch

is developed by named developers (good point), but as it is a free download, it seems to be left without an only guarantee.

Always think about that: free software are given, i.e.: without a promised service after that.

-Please, you should give a priority to BitLocker, included in Windows 8 Pro, because the integrated systems are always more stable.

Except if you are a secret security agent, in which case you would need a TrueCrypt without a commercial company affiliation.

P. S.:

I have not read all the introductive text, but it appears to me obvious that too much encryption by definition cannot be supported by Norton, because unreadable softwares are potential threats.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

This comment is completely besides the point...

I for one am very disappointed by Norton...

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

@ Bohr-Oppenheimer

Even if it is common knowledge that source-available encryption software is generally more secure than proprietary software, firstly: each user shall decides himself what he needs (TrueCrypt, VeraCrypt, Bitlocker,…) and secondly this is not the point in this forum thread. The point is that Symantec is working on a solution to the BSOD problem and proposes in the meantime the installation of NIS; a PM to Liliana will give you the instructions including a license key with a duration that should be sufficient until Symantec comes out with the patch. It took me exactly 20 minutes (for 1 PC) to reinstall NIS including computer restart and update of the virus list. However, I understand that a lot of users are angry as it took mostly a long time to find out what the problem was and that NS is usually installed on several machines…

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I recognize that the problem came after an update of Norton, and not after an update of TrueCrypt,

but the stability of integrated softwares is in the target, I think. Maybe she don't remember that an encryption solution is already included - so I let me remember it to her.

Anyway, to use a deep encryption third-part performing software, and in the same time demanding to a security program to decrypt it - I guess on an old Atom CPU computer - appears to me as a mad use of a computer.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

This issue is much more widespread than just TrueCrypt.  My issue is caused by a cloud storage drive that I use for backups.  While Norton has been good to offer an extended downgrade to my prior product, I am still very disappointed.

Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

@Bohr-Oppenheimer:

Always think about that: free software are given, i.e.: without a promised service after that.

In exactly this thread, many users complain about "promised service" for software which is not free.

Except if you are a secret security agent, in which case you would need a TrueCrypt without a commercial company affiliation.

There are many commercial and also private users who process data which must not be available to unauthorized persons. They might contain personal secrets (e.g. banking or other access codes), commercial secrets (e.g. drafts for new products under development or internal financial data which competitors must not know), data protected by law (e.g. data of employees, health data), or data which have to be protected in order to protect other people (e.g. data which journalists receive from contact persons - in particular in countries where freedom of press is limited). And there are enough incidents of attempts to get unauthorized access to such data. Not only "secret security agents" might decide to choose some encryption software which is not the on-board software delivered in a bundle with the operating system.

I have not read all the introductive text, but it appears to me obvious that too much encryption by definition cannot be supported by Norton, because unreadable softwares are potential threats.

Nobody here in this forum knows the technical details of the bug. But, however, a bluescreen is not a feature, but always a bug. And antivirus software produced by competitors, and also some antivirus software produced by Symantec (NIS), can handle TrueCrypt and other encryption software which leads to a bluescreen while using Norton Security.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I don't know how this turned into NS reading encryption files? Never was or is part of the problem. In a nutshell the PROBLEM is that when one opens a Virtual Drive NS produces a BSOD. Has nothing to do with 'what app' is opening the Virtual Drive 'how' that drive is intended to be used.

Still since this problem can be recreated by trying to use almost and encryption program or even any program that opens a Virtual Drive it is really hard to fathom why a fix is taking so long? After all, and update to fix a shutdown problem many were having caused this, so what code was changed surely should be known and a good place to start looking for the problem.

To be honest, I understand if a fix were to be made it might bring back the shutdown problem, and causing this would just bring other people complaining. However why hasn't a 'beta' been produced so some here could test it and some that had the other problem test it? It is or should be obvious that the testing for the shutdown problem did NOT catch the Virtual Drive problem. So why would Norton expect any fix to be good without through testing?

Even then the question still remains, "HOW LONG" will it take and no answer for that has been provided or suggested.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

I'm sorry, but is Norton still blaming Truecrypt for this even though EVERYBODY says they have had issues using other encryption software too(including me)? Is there any way I could get a partial refund now that my time to get a full refund has passed? I stayed under the impression that Norton knew of the issue and was fixing it but I've seen mixed responses implying differently. Hell, this issue even sparked a NEWS article on multiple websites in multiple languages, including on The Register(http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/20/truecrypt_norton_bsod_snafu). 

What's the contact number to Cnet and Techcrunch and Mashable? It seems more pressure is needed for Norton to be unanimous on the existence of an issue and the cause(NORTON).

Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Let us NOT get off the target of this particular problem...

Software that PREVIOUSLY worked perfectly with Norton, and worked perfectly with all  older versions of Norton, suddenly and without warning failed BECAUSE of an Update to Norton Security.  The failure is complete - a BSOD and a forced immediate computer reboot.  Any work in progress is lost. 

The simple fact is that current Norton software DOES NOT WORK CORRECTLY AND IS DESTRUCTIVE.

It makes no matter what software we use...

Disk encryption software is very common. You don't want all your passwords and financials quickly available to a thief.   

What specific program we use is of no importance.  That it is freeware or not is of no concern.   Why we use it does not matter.

The point here is to alert Norton of the failure, and continue to urge them for a fix to their faulty program.  Not only just for us, but to improve their company reputation and to keep their customers returning to future Norton products.

=============================

That our problem still exists in Norton Security software after almost 90 days is highly disturbing to us all.

Also disturbing is the lack of information of the status of a patch that will repair their faulty software.

That Norton released a previous code patch WITHOUT PROPER and COMPLETE TESTING, and that code change causes a BSOD, is hard to understand.  Almost impossible to understand is that same  destructively bad code STILL IS PRESENT in their current software.

One could, and perhaps should say that Norton Security ITSELF IS A DESTRUCTIVE COMPUTER VIRUS, attacking your computer when and if you use common security encryption software.

Perhaps THIS IS THE POINT of what we should be saying.

regards to all,

Michael Gore

San Francisco

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Is there any way I could get a partial refund now that my time to get a full refund has passed?

Nobody here will be able to give you legal advise, in particular, as you have not stated which jurisdiction you are living in, what more or less fancy "terms and conditions" the seller and Symantec have tried to use in your case (when selling the software to you), and, what is most important, if such "terms and conditions" are valid or not according to the applicable law. In my case, some pressure had helped (for details see one of my earlier contributions), and I got my money back.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Just upgraded from NIS to Norton Security and have the same BSOD problem with the Kaspersky Kryptostorage (KKS) software that I've been using for years and that was doing just fine with NIS.  Since it's been only a few days from my upgrade, I will be asking for a refund.  I am really dissapointed.

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hi Danmaor,

I read your previous well written post, and had much respect for you from this time. Only a question about it: Is there really a guarantee from unfree software companies, or rather from the law about them, even against any error - it appears to me as incredible to anticipate any error from some interaction, by example ?

And if we subtract the time spend for the pay-back, it is as the product was not totally paid back. Assuming it take a little hour to speak with call centers, with a small rate of 20€/hour, there should be a basic standard additional interest.

danmaor:

@Bohr-Oppenheimer:

Always think about that: free software are given, i.e.: without a promised service after that.

In exactly this thread, many users complain about "promised service" for software which is not free.

Except if you are a secret security agent, in which case you would need a TrueCrypt without a commercial company affiliation.

There are many commercial and also private users who process data which must not be available to unauthorized persons. They might contain personal secrets (e.g. banking or other access codes), commercial secrets (e.g. drafts for new products under development or internal financial data which competitors must not know), data protected by law (e.g. data of employees, health data), or data which have to be protected in order to protect other people (e.g. data which journalists receive from contact persons - in particular in countries where freedom of press is limited). And there are enough incidents of attempts to get unauthorized access to such data. Not only "secret security agents" might decide to choose some encryption software which is not the on-board software delivered in a bundle with the operating system.

I have not read all the introductive text, but it appears to me obvious that too much encryption by definition cannot be supported by Norton, because unreadable softwares are potential threats.

Nobody here in this forum knows the technical details of the bug. But, however, a bluescreen is not a feature, but always a bug. And antivirus software produced by competitors, and also some antivirus software produced by Symantec (NIS), can handle TrueCrypt and other encryption software which leads to a bluescreen while using Norton Security.

Thank you for your answer, especially your second paragraph even about some points I did not thought about. You're great! 

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello

True Crypt is in the heading of this thread, but Norton is well aware that there are other encryption programs out there that are causing the BSOD's. Every post in this thread is being read by Norton Employees and well as who ever wants to read this thread. This is an open Forum and it is a user to user Forum. As far as any one getting refunds, that is something that would have to be taken up with Norton on an individual basis. The best way of getting any information about that is by having a chat with customer support and explain to them that this is a special case and not the usual, typical request for a refund if you have NS for longer than the usual refund period. In case you didn't know, Symantec will give a refund no matter where you bought the product within a certain time period and you have to submit certain things as proof of purchase.

As far as being told when a patch is going to come out, Norton and Symantec has never given advance notice of a date. You all should be aware for the reason of this policy. As far as beta testing of the patch, that is being done to a degree when the patch is released. For the people who are new to Norton products or new to the Forum, when a new patch is released, it is not given to everyone at the same time. It's given out in a phased manner. If these few users have no problems, then it's given out to some more people. Users post in the Forum if the patch appears to be good or if there are problems. If there are reported problems, then a patch can be pulled and it's worked on further. If the telemetry for the patch is ok, then it's given out to everyone through Live Update.  In the Forum, you will find just what things the current patch fixed. It will list if there were other things besides the long shutdown problem. The major things will be listed, the minor bugs are listed as minor bugs term.

One more thing. A GURU is not s Symantec Employee. I am a user like all of you are users.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 2004 N 360 22.20.5.39 Chrome latest version.
Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

@Bohr-Oppenheimer:

Only a question about it: Is there really a guarantee from unfree software companies, or rather from the law about them, even against any error - it appears to me as incredible to anticipate any error from some interaction, by example ?

Surely, not every disfunctionality can be regarded as a defect, but a substantive disfunctionality can. And my position is that we are talking about a substantial disfunctionality here. As I feel quite sure that there is no judgment of any higher court in the world where the court had decided about "Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt", no lawyer in the world could give you any guarantee on the outcome of legal proceedings.

And please do not forget, I was talking about purchasing the software when it was already defective in the latest updated version (with the bug). So I only had to find arguments that the software which I had bought is originally defective. Usually, the seller cannot be held responsible for updates. Thus, for example, if you buy a smartphone, the seller is only responsible for its functioning at the time it is taken out of the box. As I said, Norton Security was defective when it came out of my box. So I did not have to worry about that point.

With antivirus software, I think there are reasons to claim a difference to my smartphone example: Without updates, the software is useless. So you buy the software core engine, as it is (and which you indeed may use indefinitely), and you also enter into a services contract, to update antivirus definitions, and the engine code, to the latest requirements - those updates are not provided out of generosity (different to the smartphone example), but essential. But whom are you entering the services contract with? It would rather not be the seller, but the producer of the software. The seller only conveys the contract with the producer to the buyer. So, in case it is an update which causes problems, the contract terms with the producer are applicable. They may or may not contain fancy rules ("provided as is", "without any guarantee", "law of the State XY applies", "arbitration in wonderland"), but those terms may not be valid.

And here, it depends on the legal order of your jurisdiction. In jurisdictions with strong consumer protection, as e.g. the EU, the producer's lawyers could write anything into the terms, but, however, they would not be able to arrange non-liability for providing defective updates as services. In other jurisdictions, ideas like "if you are contracting with an unreliable partner, it is your problem" might prevail.

And it is also true that the effort which has to be taken is a relevant factor. In my case, I could simply sue the seller and Symantec at the law court just around the corner, for nothing more than a nominal fee, which I would even be reimbursed in if I win, and without having to take and pay an extra lawyer.

Having said all this, the answer to your question is: "It depends". :-)

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

As far as any one getting refunds, that is something that would have to be taken up with Norton on an individual basis.

There is another point. Firstly, there are laws which Symantec Corporation is bound to. Secondly, many users who are writing here obviously do not want to bow to Symantec in order to get any relief, if and as far as some call center agent finally decides upon.

The best way of getting any information about that is by having a chat with customer support and explain to them that this is a special case and not the usual, typical request for a refund if you have NS for longer than the usual refund period. In case you didn't know, Symantec will give a refund no matter where you bought the product within a certain time period and you have to submit certain things as proof of purchase.

Yes, according to their policy, you have to write in paper to some address in possibly a different country. Buying is possible in any comfortable manner, online, by just submitting some payment data. Termination requires written paper. How generous ...!

As far as being told when a patch is going to come out, Norton and Symantec has never given advance notice of a date.

Many users have the idea that this policy is not satisfactory. I do not have to repeat their points here, as Symantec employees read every contribution here, as you had said.

You all should be aware for the reason of this policy. As far as beta testing of the patch, that is being done to a degree when the patch is released. For the people who are new to Norton products or new to the Forum, when a new patch is released, it is not given to everyone at the same time. It's given out in a phased manner. If these few users have no problems, then it's given out to some more people. Users post in the Forum if the patch appears to be good or if there are problems. If there are reported problems, then a patch can be pulled and it's worked on further. If the telemetry for the patch is ok, then it's given out to everyone through Live Update.  In the Forum, you will find just what things the current patch fixed. It will list if there were other things besides the long shutdown problem. The major things will be listed, the minor bugs are listed as minor bugs term.

I wonder why other software companies do not have such problems.

One more thing. A GURU is not s Symantec Employee. I am a user like all of you are users.

A bit more apologetic, though. ;-)

Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

List of reported NORTON SECURITY (after the v22.1.0.9 update 12/11/2014) BSOD and rebooting Software problems in just this single Thread...

Note: all worked well under prevous Norton versions. Thread started December 13, 2014

Truecrypt disk encryption

Kaspersky Kryptostorage

VeraCrypt 1.0e

Boxcrypt and BoxCryptor

Cryptainer

SoftPerfect RAM Disk

TNTDrive

Steganos Safe V16

SafeHouse

Symantec Encryption Desktop - Powered by PGP (v10.3.2MP7)

Livedrive encryption

MS Office 2010  (uses a virtual drive)

various Cloud Storage drives

I'm sure there are more in other threads...

Kudos1 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Hello

Just asking because I don't know, but could the FREAK encryption bug have anything to do with the problems in this thread. I know it started out being involved with Androids and iPhones, but according to this article, it could also affect Windows users. I know it's the Norton patch according to this thread that broke the camel's back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31765672

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 2004 N 360 22.20.5.39 Chrome latest version.
Kudos0

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

Interesting -- I must see what ISC has to say ...

Noted this:

Microsoft has issued advice about ways to remove the vulnerability from some of its software but said applying these fixes could cause "serious problems" with other programs. It said it was working on a separate security update to remove the vulnerability.

Kudos2 Stats

Re: LONG STORY: Norton BSOD me when I use Truecrypt

floplot:

Hello

Just asking because I don't know, but could the FREAK encryption bug have anything to do with the problems in this thread. I know it started out being involved with Androids and iPhones, but according to this article, it could also affect Windows users. I know it's the Norton patch according to this thread that broke the camel's back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31765672

huwyngr:

Interesting -- I must see what ISC has to say ...

Noted this:

Microsoft has issued advice about ways to remove the vulnerability from some of its software but said applying these fixes could cause "serious problems" with other programs. It said it was working on a separate security update to remove the vulnerability.

I'm just gonna leave these links here...... So you guys for once have some decent information about this CVE.

This CVE is a network exploit, which in this case is affecting SSL/TLS-traffic.

"Some implementations of SSL/TLS accept export-grade (512-bit or smaller) RSA keys even when not specifically requesting export grade ciphers. An attacker able to act as a Man-in-The-Middle (MiTM) could factor weak temporary RSA keys, obtain session keys, and decrypt SSL/TLS trafflc. This issue has been dubbed the "FREAK" (Factoring Attack on RSA-EXPORT Keys) attack." - CERT.org

https://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/243585

https://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/vuln/detail?vulnId=CVE-2015-1637

http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2015/03/attack-of-week-freak-or-...

https://community.norton.com/en/blogs/norton-protection-blog/new-freak-v...

https://threatpost.com/microsoft-warns-schannel-vulnerable-to-freak-atta...

Since the issue we are discussing in this thread isn't about cryptography, I think we can rule this one out.

This thread is closed from further comment. Please visit the forum to start a new thread.