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Kudos4 Stats

NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Symantec,

One of four PCs received this update today.

Again I object to the fact that I, your customer (unlike almost every other product I own), have zero control over when and if your software application is updated.  NIS 2010 was a real series of debacles with problematicupdates.

So far, NIS 2011 has been having a much smoother deployment.  Still I object to that you deny me any control.  Right now, one of my four PCs has 18.5.0.125.  Seemingly, it is one of the first set, you are deploying to.  But I don't want to be first.  I would much rather wait to see how it shakes out for all the eager beavers to try something new, and then patch in 2-3 weeks from now when I am ready.  Also, I typically update software on my own personal schedule and keep my systems in sync to reduce my work load for testing.

There will be those who will say if you allow me this control, then my window for exposure to malware infection will be significantly increased.  To that I reply, that NIS 18.5.0.125 was probably sitting around internally at Symantec for weeks now, and yet I survived just fine.

Yes, I have raised this issue in the past and will continue to raise it as long as this major flaw is ignored and this matter of customer respect is ignored.  (On the whole, I find NIS to be better than most of the other options.  Thus, despite this issue I continue my patronage.)

Thank you.

Replies

Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Mark_Kratzer Hi,

 

You are using NIS 2011 and are relying on Symantec for your internet security.

 

To do as you propose, to let each customer decide if and when he will apply updates and improvements is, in my opinion, quite ludicrous.

 

Are you suggesting that we should test these new issues, or do you trust Symantec to produce good products which enhance the software?

 

I believe that there are so few errors coming from Norton products, and these usually occur during Beta testing when those using Beta products are aware things may occasionally go wrong, that we can trust Symantec to thoroughly test their new additions.

 

Further, I am sure that our security is enhanced by these updates and the program is better for them.

 

Let Symantec do their job in a professional and expert way and stop trying to second guess them.  They have a very difficult job with all those bad people who are trying to mess with our computers without you trying to make matters more difficult for them.

 

You wrote :-

 

..........................................................................................................................................

 (On the whole, I find NIS to be better than most of the other options.  Thus, despite this issue I continue my patronage.)

 

..........................................................................................................................................

 

Grudgingly, even you seem to admit that NIS 2011 is a fantastic program, so let Symantec keep up the good work, for the benefit of all of us.

 

drshlomo.

Kudos3 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

"ludicrous"

I define it as having spent about 8 weeks with non-functional security software (NIS 2010).  First, the UI was unavailable for many XP users.  Second, many XP users were unable to launch any full screen applications.

All software is prone to bugs and problems.  When no remediation controls are placed in the hands of customers, then the developer must have a proven track record of zero-defect tolerance.  (rarely ever happens)

But the above is ancient history.  How about something a little more recent and close to home.

http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Internet-Security-Norton/18-5-0-125-Lockups/td-p/341652

Fortunately this isn't me, but it could easily be.  What if I had a critical deliverable for today and didn't have time to beta-test for Symantec?  Shouldn't I be given a choice?

The purpose of NIS is to prevent malware.  Why?  Because malware is disruptive to the use of my PC, a personal productivity tool.  When Symantec forces out updates without giving me any option to control when I accept them and a means to rollback when they fail, then when major debacles occur like with NIS 2010 for XP SP3 ... Symantec itself becomes the major disruption of PC computing which it had been licensed with to avoid.

Now, that is "ludricous"!

Kudos3 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Ah, more "ludicrous" in action ...

http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Internet-Security-Norton/NIS-18-5-0-125-Settings-bug/td-p/341536

Once again, the only thing saving some people is that it hasn't been pushed to them yet.  Of course, one could argue that is the whole point of the phased rollout.  Except if you happen to have been "phased on", but had something better to do with your time like earn a living.

Kudos2 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

"Same here... I lost nearly 5-6 hours tracing the cause of strange behaviours" from one customer.

"Thanks for posting older version. Hopefully, this upgrade is being halted. I don't want my desktop getting borked. I need it for work." from another customer who had his daughter's PC hobbled.

Isn't this lost time and fear of being crippled by zapped by errant software very similar to _________?  Perhaps, malware?

Why cannot customers be able to opt-out of being on the bleeding edge of a deployment?  (The default like many Symantec options, can be set for opt-in.  Also, there are many who will, if given the choice, opt-in.  So, there should be an adequate number test subjects for any new deployment.)

Why can't there be a simple rollback option in the UI?  Given all the fancy stuff that NIS does, restoring prior version and its settings should not be too difficult.

Apparently, these 2011 problems are afflicting Vista/Win7 and 64b users.  2010's debacle was mainly XP SP3 users.  At least, it seems everyone is getting equal treatment here.  Despite being on XP and okay so far, I've debated just turning off Live Update on my other machines and doing daily intelligent virus updater definitions manually.  And as soon as I see reports of XP problems, that is what I am going to do.

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Hi Folks,

There is certainly nothing wrong with wanting to have control over when and how updates are applied. This is completely understandable and sometimes problems do crop up such as the recent NIS 2011 18.5 update.

While it is VERY important to stay up to date on NIS in order to get the best protection, in the end it is still the users computer. Clearly the most important thing is to get the "definition" updates. Holding off just a bit on the program updates is not going to be disastrous, however it is important to get these updates at the earliest opportunity as they also contain changes which many times also enhance the security of your computer.

Mark_Kratzer, please see the following post in the Norton Ideas Forum and if you agree with it you can add your voice to the support of the idea.

http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Product-Ideas/Allow-Live-Update-to-be-Scheduled/idi-p/291582

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos2 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Hi Allen

Mark already has his own post open in the Norton Product Ideas forum in relation to this particular issue:

http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Product-Ideas/NIS-Allow-customers-the-option-not-to-auto-patch/idc-p/294106#M948

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


elsewhere wrote:

Hi Allen

Mark already has his own post open in the Norton Product Ideas forum in relation to this particular issue:

http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Product-Ideas/NIS-Allow-customers-the-option-not-to-auto-patch/idc-p/294106#M948


Hi Elsewhere,

So he does! I guess I did not look closely enough did I?

Thanks very much for the link.

Deja vu! Now I remember having this discussion with Mark in another thread sometime back. Sorry I did not remember this off the top of my head Mark.

I added my support to your idea Mark.

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Mark,

I am a low-level techie and I share your thoughts after going thru great pains within the past couple of days, having Windows 7 64-bit Professional as the OS, and having been one of those whose PC half-way shut down (as described in several other threads by subscribers like me) following the NIS 2011 update to 18.5.0.125.

I finally performed a second uninstall of .125 and reinstalled 18.1.0.37 via a link in another thread, and things have returned to normal so far.

But, I discovered something while drilling down thru the 18.1.0.37 tabs that may (or may not?) address your thoughts about automatic New Version downloads for any of us who are (now really) paranoid...and I now am!

Open the NIS GUI-->"Settings" tab-->"Misc Settings"(Wrench tool icon)-->Automatic Download of New Version-->ON/OFF-->"Apply" button at bottom of page.

I have now turned the Automatic Download of New Version option to OFF.

Maybe this is/was what will solve the issue discussed here (?). Or will this option not prevent Symantec/Norton from pushing the uninvited New Versions to some of us...anyway?

Dunno.

Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

1mrctd,

Yes, I have seen that before.

That option applies only to NIS 2009 -> 2010 -> 2011 etc. and not these "patches".  (I have that set to OFF and I keep getting these patches.  In this case and others, one of my systems were in the first test group.)

What I had to do during the 2010 2 month debacles was:

(1)  Uninstall.

(2)  Disconnect from the Internet.

(3)  Install the prior version.

(4)  Turn off auto-update.

(5)  Each day download the intelligent definition updater and apply it.

This is all too much trouble and is unnecessary.  Buildings are built with fire exits, sprinklers, emergency lighting, flame retardant materials, smoke detectors, alarm systems, etc...  They are not supposed to have fires, but when and if they do, the occupants are suppose to have every chance possible to get out alive.  In contrast to the Symantec's philosophy "This should not happen.  We do our best.  Have faith."

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

AllenM,

With such a large community of NIS customers, it's a small world! 

Sorry to hear that you got nailed this time around.  It looks like XP has been spared.  Of course, the life cycle of 2011 is still quite young, and we are all just one reboot away from the great BSOD after life.

Happy Holidays!

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

So, is there a fundamental flaw in Symantec in-house testing or are bugs just the nature of the beast.

Granted, Windows and Adobe and Java etc are always in the repair shop.  But, with those apps I have update options.

I have free and subscription apps that have consistently offered flawless updates while also providing update options.

So, is there a fundamental flaw in Symantec in-house testing / roll out update process employing users as testers or are bugs just the nature of the beast.

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

I have had nothing but trouble since NIS automatically updated to Ver 18.5.0.125. Email not working other applications not starting PC extremily slow. So today 12/11/2011 I uninstalled NIS & reinstalled to 18.1.0.37 and everything works 100%. Interestingly when I tried to select update to newest version it responds with "You have the latest version"!!! They must have removed Ver 18.5.0.125

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Luckily my Vista 32 bit machine has received the update but seems to be functioning normally.

But I have to ask Norton, for all those affected negatively by this update, what "Security" are they finding in Norton Internet Security? In fact from descriptions of what is happening on some computers which I've read on this forum, many users are going to think their computer has been infected by a virus!

I think Norton has to find a better way to handle distribution of these updates or they are going to seriously damage their reputation!

Mike

After posting I just read jkett's post.  If their post was on some general computer help forum and you knew nothing about this buggy update what would you conclude had most likely happened to jkett's computer??

Kudos2 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


bjm_ wrote:

So, is there a fundamental flaw in Symantec in-house testing or are bugs just the nature of the beast.

Granted, Windows and Adobe and Java etc are always in the repair shop.  But, with those apps I have update options.

I have free and subscription apps that have consistently offered flawless updates while also providing update options.

So, is there a fundamental flaw in Symantec in-house testing / roll out update process employing users as testers or are bugs just the nature of the beast.


Hi bjm_

I think Symantec does really good testing but I have learned a long time ago there is always room for improvement in anything we do in life. I am sure Symantec will be looking at what happened here and make adjustments in their test procedures accordingly.

With any complex software like NIS there is going to be bugs so yes it is the "nature of the beast" but clearly you don't reasonably expect something this "nasty" to hit a users computer.

Every software has bugs and believe me when I say that other software you have updated which you do not have problems with, there are other people who DO have problems with that same software. It is also true that with anti-virus software the potential is also higher for problems like this because of how tightly it has to integrate itself into the OS to protect your computer.

Though this problem is nasty for those affected (I was affected by this one also!) we need to realize that there are many others who have the 18.5 patch and are having no problems whatsoever. Obviously I don't know what the percentage of affected vs not affected users are, but I think the ones affected by this are still very much in the minority of the total 18.5 population.

There are quite a few users in several threads describing problems with 18.5 so clearly this affects a lot of people but think about all the users who have not posted about it....

That is my two cents worth.

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos2 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

I am disabling auto-update until this thing gets sorted out.  (I just read my first post of someone with XP installed having problems.  That's good enough for me.)  It's downloading and running definitions for me every morning again.

http://www.symantec.com/business/security_response/definitions/download/detail.jsp?gid=n95

One of the thing that I though was particularly atrocious with the two wide spread NIS 2010 XP bugs was that Symantec refused withdraw or halt the deployment of the problematic patches, but instead continued serving them while making the afflicted wait four weeks or so in each case for a fix.

I am going to be proactive this time around, since I know Symantec could well add my other PCs to deployment of a flawed patch.

Allen,

I think the lack of 10,000 posts about problems with this release is not a positive sign.  After all, the level of traffic on this forum is miniscule compared to the customer base.  Those that participate here whether experiencing problems or not are atypical.  I would not be surprised if there aren't many people wondering this Saturday what's wrong with their PCs.  Sigh ...

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


Mark_Kratzer wrote:

I am disabling auto-update until this thing gets sorted out.  (I just read my first post of someone with XP installed having problems.  That's good enough for me.)  It's downloading and running definitions for me every morning again.

http://www.symantec.com/business/security_response/definitions/download/detail.jsp?gid=n95

One of the thing that I though was particularly atrocious with the two wide spread NIS 2010 XP bugs was that Symantec refused withdraw or halt the deployment of the problematic patches, but instead continued serving them while making the afflicted wait four weeks or so in each case for a fix.

I am going to be proactive this time around, since I know Symantec could well add my other PCs to deployment of a flawed patch.

Allen,

I think the lack of 10,000 posts about problems with this release is not a positive sign.  After all, the level of traffic on this forum is miniscule compared to the customer base.  Those that participate here whether experiencing problems or not are atypical.  I would not be surprised if there aren't many people wondering this Saturday what's wrong with their PCs.  Sigh ...


Hi Mark,

I am sure that is true, obviously not everyone participates or even knows about the forums here. But we do have a lot of users who do frequent the forums, particularly when they are having a problem and I'm not seeing anywhere near the volume I would expect to see if this were truly a "global" problem. I am pretty familar with the patterns of many of the users here.

I doubt we will ever know what percentage of users were affected by this.

I am however using this case to help push your idea of having more options to control the behavior of Norton updates going forward. Let's see how that goes.

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Hi AllenM

Always appreciate your two cents worth  

Maybe you would share your two cents as to why Symantec does not solicit request for testers. 

For those that visit the Community ~ Announcements or Hot Issues and to those that do not visit the Community thru emails / phone calls or thru norton account options "Do you want to be a tester" Yes/No or via Threat Map display.  Hey! We need testers.  Apply here.  Or, as part of the License Agreement.  Tic the box or not.  I agree to the Terms and Conditions.  I agree to be a Tester. As a popup.  Do you want to be a Tester...click here. 

There are ways to garner Testers other than a random lottery. 

That is my two cents worth.

Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Hi bjm_

I wish I could answer those questions because they are good ones. I will do my part to push Mark_Kratzer's idea which I see you have already Kudo'd. This is a perfect case in point as to why those additional options are needed.

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Thank you, Allen.

Although I would like Symantec's deployments to be perfect, my anxiety level would much less if I knew I was in the driver's seat.

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Curious, what happens to the affected user that rolls back to 18.1.

Might they get slammed again. 

?

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

He he he ... that is why you first disconnect from the Internet, reinstall, and then disable live update before plugging in the ethernet port again. 

Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


bjm_ wrote:

Curious, what happens to the affected user that rolls back to 18.1.

Might they get slammed again. 

?


HI bjm_

The following is my opinion only so please take it as such. I don't want to be interpreted as speaking for Symantec on this one!

My desktop had the problem and I used the NRT to roll back to 18.1. Live update no longer pulls 18.5 which I think is because the Symantec server knows that I had already received it at some point and does not push it down to me a second time. I can only say that repeated live updates continues to tell me there are no program updates.

I don't think Symantec will make this patch generally available until this problem is solved but again I must reiterate that this is my personal opinion only.

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


AllenM wrote:


My desktop had the problem and I used the NRT to roll back to 18.1.

I appreciate all posts are not official other than official posts from those official red guys/gals.

So, un-officially.  You ran NRT because  ~~~ You viewed 18.5 as a corrupt install / problems with program.

The built in uninstaller or Control Panel would not be sufficient for this type of event. 

You went thru the whole process.  Control Panel > Reboot > NRT > Reboot > NRT Reboot > 18.1

When it's my turn in the barrel.  Just curious how those in the know un-officially get out of barrel.

Thanks

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


Mark_Kratzer wrote:

He he he ... that is why you first disconnect from the Internet, reinstall, and then disable live update before plugging in the ethernet port again. 


Hello Mark_Kratzer

Wow, you've been slammed over and over.  

I supported you before as I support you now. 

I commiserated with you before as I commiserate with you now. 

There should be a rule ~  two slams and you are permantly off the random lottery tester list.

Correction: There should be a rule ~ One slam and you are permantly off the random lottery tester list.

Lets take a vote.  All those in favor say “aye”. 

The “ayes" have it and the motion is carried.

So, let it be written... so, let it be done.

Kudos2 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


bjm_ wrote:

AllenM wrote:


My desktop had the problem and I used the NRT to roll back to 18.1.

I appreciate all posts are not official other than official posts from those official red guys/gals.

So, un-officially.  You ran NRT because  ~~~ You viewed 18.5 as a corrupt install / problems with program.

The built in uninstaller or Control Panel would not be sufficient for this type of event. 

You went thru the whole process.  Control Panel > Reboot > NRT > Reboot > NRT Reboot > 18.1

When it's my turn in the barrel.  Just curious how those in the know un-officially get out of barrel.

Thanks


HI bjm_,

There are a couple of possibilities, one is the NRT and the other is to attempt safe mode uninstall and/or NRT in a case like this.

As Tim Lopez has stated in another post, Live Update will not retrieve 18.5.

Sometimes we can speak for Symantec when it comes directly from one of the "staff" but when this is the case we explicitly state that it came from Symantec.

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32
Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Hi all,

I'm a little confused here. I thought that program updates are only downloaded when running manual LiveUpdate. And yea, I understand they turned it off for now while they are working out the kinks in 18.5 so nobody will get it... but if you don't want to be the first to test a new patch, can't you just not run LiveUpdate? Unless I'm seriously confused, you only get protection updates through automatic liveupdate and program updates will only download with a manually launched LiveUpdate. I'm sure I read that somewhere... please tell me if I'm wrong because this is how I thought it worked.

Kudos1 Stats

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Hi BlitzXor,

Program updates are downloaded and installed with other updates whether you run LiveUpdate manually or automatically. 

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!

Haha, right you are, I guess I should've checked my own version before posting anything at all... I seem to have gotten 18.5, and I know for a fact I haven't manually launched LiveUpdate. Well, in my opinion, they should make it work they way I thought it did work, because that would be a real easy way to opt-out. Fortunately, I have not had any problems yet (lucky!).

Kudos0

Re: NIS 18.5.0.125 (Complaint): I object!


BlitzXor wrote:

Haha, right you are, I guess I should've checked my own version before posting anything at all... I seem to have gotten 18.5, and I know for a fact I haven't manually launched LiveUpdate. Well, in my opinion, they should make it work they way I thought it did work, because that would be a real easy way to opt-out. Fortunately, I have not had any problems yet (lucky!).


Hi BlitzXor,

You might want to look at the following post in the Norton Ideas forum and if you agree you can lend your voice of support to the idea.

http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Product-Ideas/NIS-Allow-customers-the-option-not-to-auto-patch/idc-p/294106#M948

Best wishes.

Allen

Windows 7 Ultimate SP 1, 64 bit, 32 GB * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32* Ghost 15 * IE 9, Firefox, Safari. Test laptop with W7 Home Premium 64 bit * NIS Vers. 21.6.0.32

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