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Kudos1 Stats

Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

I think it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when visiting this forum. There are a certain set of users that constantly recommend disabling Fast Start on Windows.

Why would you recommend that a user turn off Fast Start when it has nothing to do with the original question? Why would you recommend to someone they should decrease performance and increase start up time unnecessarily?

I have experienced zero issues because of Fast Start on Windows. It is possible that other users may actually be able to use it without issue too. So recommending it be turned off without a valid reason isn't the best idea.

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x

Replies

Kudos1 Stats

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

A little bit of knowledge is... well a little bit of knowledge.
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Also, dual booting a machine with fast startup enabled Windows installation can cause data loss. This also applies to live booting for data recovery and infection removal.

Other problems like software misbehaviour, failure are caused on a lot of machines. Basically the problem lies in designers back at MSFT assuming all software and applications developers obey their rules always...

regards, CV | There is no ONE TOUCH KEY to security . Be alert and vigilant. . | Always have a Backup Plan!
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Krusty13:

Here's two reasons:

https://community.norton.com/en/forums/windows-881-or-10-and-fast-start-feature

and perhaps more importantly,

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/ucf/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=427

I've already read the first link several times before today. That is written more reasonably than what I see recommended in threads. At least it talks about the Win+X menu. Not just "Disable fast startup because..." some people have issues.

The second link is interesting because it doesn't say "disk corruption is imminent".

"It's now well established that the Fast Startup (hibernate on shutdown) gimmick is causing disk corruption." with no sources linked.

------------------------------------

I haven't experienced any corruption since August 1, 2012 when Windows 8 was released. So out of billions of Windows users I managed to be the only one that isn't affected by this fast startup "disk corruption".

Which again I'd like to point out just because certain users experience issues with fast startup. Doesn't mean every user will and I don't think it makes sense to recommend to users without a valid reason to disable fast startup. The user makes a totally unrelated thread that has nothing to do with fast startup and their issue is in no way related to fast startup. But someone comes along and says "Disable fast start because..." without a reason given why it applies to their problem (because it doesn't). The user may believe it's necessary even though it isn't. Because each user has a different level of experience with computers. So this advice targets novice to intermediate users whom may not even need to disable fast startup because their system is managing to operate without issue.

------------------------------------

Nikhil_CV:

Also, dual booting a machine with fast startup enabled Windows installation can cause data loss. This also applies to live booting for data recovery and infection removal.

Other problems like software misbehaviour, failure are caused on a lot of machines. Basically the problem lies in designers back at MSFT assuming all software and applications developers obey their rules always...

Recommending fast start be disabled isn't always recommended to a user that dual boots. It seems like it's recommended even when it doesn't apply to the user's problem.

The blame doesn't lie completely with Microsoft. It's been 3 years and software developers should've had ample time by now to catch up and deal with fast startup. Fast startup can't be this impenetrable force, can it?

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

I use faststartup as a lasthand weapon and usually asks users to turn it back on if its not helping...
Faststartup was not introduced in Win8, its actually a hybrid sleep very similar to hybernation of earlier ones.

IRL, how will you feel like when kicked out of deep sleep and asked to do heavy rigerous task? That can occur with faststartup...
Most applications have less interaction with kernal/core OS file. Exceptions are driver and security software and similar ones...

I'm not justifying anyone, but faststartup is mostly intended for mobile devices, no PCs.
Maybe because the security software wants to load and scan before the rest of the stuff loads and faststartup is messing that up? Faststartup doesn't load the files and drivers as they are intended to be loaded. It points to the saved system state than original boot configuration. That creates issues for the security software, dual booting and live booting (and accessing the windows drive)

regards, CV | There is no ONE TOUCH KEY to security . Be alert and vigilant. . | Always have a Backup Plan!
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

I have been using Fast Startup since Win 10 was installed without problem. (It was the default setting with Win 10).

The article referenced above from TerraByte about Fast Startup causing disk corruption is 3 1/2 years old, and I would have thought Microsoft would have fixed such a serious problem long ago.

Maybe someone from Norton could comment if it is true that the Boot Time Protection will not work if using the Fast Startup.

Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Nikhil_CV:

I use faststartup as a lasthand weapon and usually asks users to turn it back on if its not helping...

 That is good. It's too bad that everyone doesn't do that. The people I see here usually recommend it first thing or when it doesn't even apply.

Faststartup was not introduced in Win8, its actually a hybrid sleep very similar to hybernation of earlier ones.

Well I've never experienced any of the issues mentioned with fast startup i.e. disk corruption, loss of data, program settings not saved or whatever else is associated with this fast startup. That isn't to say that other people couldn't have issues with fast startup.

I'm not justifying anyone, but faststartup is mostly intended for mobile devices, no PCs.

  That would actually make sense.

Maybe because the security software wants to load and scan before the rest of the stuff loads and faststartup is messing that up? Faststartup doesn't load the files and drivers as they are intended to be loaded. It points to the saved system state than original boot configuration. That creates issues for the security software, dual booting and live booting (and accessing the windows drive)

I did have a dual boot configuration with Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 Insider Preview for awhile. With both OS's using fast startup and never encountered an issue. But again, that isn't to say that other people couldn't have issues with fast startup.

I think if users when recommending disabling fast startup would stick with this;

I use faststartup as a lasthand weapon and usually asks users to turn it back on if its not helping...

That would be better than just saying "disable it" and then leaving it like that if it doesn't help.

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Davec33:

I have been using Fast Startup since Win 10 was installed without problem. (It was the default setting with Win 10).

It is default in Windows 8 too. 

The article referenced above from TerraByte about Fast Startup causing disk corruption is 3 1/2 years old, and I would have thought Microsoft would have fixed such a serious problem long ago.

Good eye, I never saw that. It might've even been around the time Windows 8 was in Beta. Yeah you'd think Microsoft would've worked out the issues by now.

Maybe someone from Norton could comment if it is true that the Boot Time Protection will not work if using the Fast Startup.

I'm not a Symantec employee but I'd imagine that boot time protection will still work with Fast Startup enabled. Since Symantec should be aware of Fast Startup I'd hope.

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

This link provides a good explanation of fast boot (fast startup) The blog was written just after Windows 8 was released;
 http://blogs.msdn.com/b/olivnie/archive/2012/12/14/windows-8-fast-boot.aspx

It sounds like fast startup should be able to handle boot time protection and early launch anti-malware (ELAM) it is talked about in that link at the bottom of the page.

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos3 Stats

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

When software is designed to work on Windows, software developers know that Windows is the operating system therefore the software has to adapt in order to fully support new versions of Windows.  It's very difficult to "blame" an operating system for a problem when the operating system is the platform that software must run upon.

Software and drivers in the past have had to deal with sleep and hibernation, now that there is a new "power state" or hybrid startup, software needs to adapt to it or it is not really fully compatible with the operating system.

You can't say it's a problem with windows unless NO software is able to adapt to the new behavior. 

As for the Terabyte article, it's absolutely correct.  However I don't think the problem is very widespread because it's an extremely poor idea in the first place to be making changes to an operating systems partition from "outside" that operating system unless it is an emergency.

Best practices would be to not use the other OS partition for data storage in the first place.  This problem has always been there to a lesser extent for things such as imaging programs because an operating system can't keep track of changes when the operating system is not in use.

Fast startup is a very useful feature, especially with tablets and laptops.  When I turn on my tablet I want it on quick because I'm turning it on because I want to use it.  Fast startup is the next logical step from hibernation and it's not going away so everyone really needs to figure out how to fully support it.

But that's just my opinion.  But your right, I think everyone should suggest rebooting the system and if a reboot cures the problem and a fast startup does not then maybe suggest turning it off.

Dave

Kudos2 Stats

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

SGFC

In the first link given above I posted "Many of these issues may be a side affect of the Fast Start feature of these operating systems." I did not say everyone should turn off the Fast Startup feature, but they should be aware of how it works and how it can interfere with software updates if the system does not get fully shut down.

Many might think that when they Shut Down their computer, they are getting a full shutdown, but as we know, they are not. This does not give software updates, Norton included, the chance to update any running system files. It is not possible to list all the threads this suggestion has been given, but there is a large percentage of the users that came back to say it helped with their problem.

It is often not possible to know for sure what is causing some obscure problem with a piece of software. As in the 'old days' of computing, a reboot is necessary to fix things. As long as the user is aware of how to achieve this, they do not have to disable the Fast Startup.

In the above linked thread, I go on to say "One way to ensure a full restart is accomplished is to right click on the Start Button and choose Restart. This will do a complete shutdown and then a fresh restart of the operating system." So I did give an alternative to disabling Fast Startup.

Things happen. Export/Backup your Norton Password Manager data.
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

DaveH:

Fast startup is a very useful feature, especially with tablets and laptops.  When I turn on my tablet I want it on quick because I'm turning it on because I want to use it.  Fast startup is the next logical step from hibernation and it's not going away so everyone really needs to figure out how to fully support it.

But that's just my opinion.  But your right, I think everyone should suggest rebooting the system and if a reboot cures the problem and a fast startup does not then maybe suggest turning it off.

Dave

Yes to that.

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

peterweb:

This does not give software updates, Norton included, the chance to update any running system files. It is not possible to list all the threads this suggestion has been given, but there is a large percentage of the users that came back to say it helped with their problem.

It is often not possible to know for sure what is causing some obscure problem with a piece of software. As in the 'old days' of computing, a reboot is necessary to fix things. As long as the user is aware of how to achieve this, they do not have to disable the Fast Startup.

Which is why Norton should get rid of the rebootless patch and revert back to requiring a reboot after a product update or any update that requires a reboot. I know there's a way to apply updates only on reboot. But it is off by default. Maybe it should be on by default.

I think it'd be smarter to recommend a restart first and how to do it correctly. Rather than on some threads where someone copy and pastes this paragraph about Windows 8/10 having fast startup and it should be disabled.

I'll re-post this because I want to be sure that you know I wasn't attacking your stickied post;

SGFC: I've already read the first link several times before today. That is written more reasonably than what I see recommended in threads. At least it talks about the Win+X menu. Not just "Disable fast startup because..." some people have issues.
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Hi, SGFC. As has been pointed out, the Fast Startup feature CAN cause problems for SOME users.

Have you measured the difference in start time with it on, and with it off ?

Even if it adds 20 seconds or however many to the start time if off, { and I don't haveWindows 8 or 10 }, is that so bad ?

Windows 10 Home X 64 Norton Security Premium Current
Kudos1 Stats

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Actually, with many modern computers including SSDs, the delay in turning off fast-start is negligible. Also since it does no harm to turn it off, I prefer to do so. I look on fast-start as I do registry cleaners; yes, they might do some good, but they also have even more potential to do great damage.

ASUS G750JX - Windows 10 Pro x64 1607 (14393.953) - NS 22.9.0.71 - Firefox 52.0 x64
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Some people miss the point, some people get it.

Instead of recommending that it should be disabled. Why not recommend alternatives to disabling it first.

Win+X Menu

Elevated CMD Shutdown /s /t 0

Or simply restarting

You do not need a full shutdown to allow updates to be made or settings saved. Leaving fast startup enabled doesn't prevent or change how restart functions.

Disabling it should be a last resort. Not the first thing you recommend to a user just because they have Windows 8 or 10.

"Why would you recommend that a user turn off Fast Start when it has nothing to do with the original question?" - from the original post. Anything else is thread participation.

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Norton Security v.22.17.x
Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

FWIW, I have always - always used Fast Start (since "in MS OS" inception) on all of my own personal systems, and on the business systems I administrate.

On the odd occasion I do encounter an OS "Fast Start" related issue (it's always on a new client's system), every time I've been able to tie it to a related OS support driver or an out-of-date "soft" BIOS installation.

One of the most common culprits (at least for systems implemented with certain Intel acceleration technologies) is the Intel Rapid Storage Technology (RST) support driver, being corrupted, out-of-date, and/or, out-of-phase with one or more other Intel acceleration OS support driver elements, such as - an Intel Rapid Start driver, or an out-of-date UEFI "soft" BIOS - all of which are "key" when it comes to systems implementing Intel Smart Response Technology ... and simultaneously trying to use OS based Fast Start.

So - For systems implementing any one, or a combination of these Intel technologies, it's imperative that the OS support drivers be kept up-to-date and in-sync/in-phase with one another ...

Just my 2 cents...

Cheers!
John

Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

.On the odd occasion I do encounter an OS "Fast Start" related issue (it's always on a new client's system), every time I've been able to tie it to a related OS support driver or an out-of-date "soft" BIOS installation

I have seen the same problems.  For me I saw them mostly with NIC and WIFI drivers, at least those were the most noticeable.   Windows 8 introduced a lower power state and more energy conservation.  Not only with the fast startup but also with suspend and hibernate.  It also added power saving states for hardware that was never cut back in the past.

I recall a lot of network adapters having problems resuming after a reduced power state including fast startup and a lot of manufactures rushing to update the drivers. A lot of people (me included) normally don't regularly look for updated drivers because for the most part, "if it's not broken, don't try to fix it".  But if an operating system is working fine and then you later upgrade the operating system, it's natural to think the problem must be the new operating system because "it was working fine before the upgrade".  So people like to blame windows when the fault really lies somewhere else.

Just because a driver "works" or supports and operating system does not mean it will not have any problems.

The same problem with network adapters not "refreshing" after a resume or fast startup seems to be the same problem as some software has with fast startup, the failure of a resume from a lower power state requiring a reboot to re-initialize the hardware, software, or drivers.

Thanks John, I never really linked those symptoms together until you mentioned it.

Dave

Kudos0

Re: Recommending Users Turn Off Fast Start

Hi Dave,

LOL - Your excellent descriptive reminded me of my recent travels with one of my own personal notebooks after upgrading it to 10/Pro. The notebook has a biometric scanner for security access, and wouldn't you know? The scanner manufacturer already did an updated driver (that's included in the Win-10 default driver libs) - But the Win-10 installer/updater left the previous driver version (meant for Win-8) in-place... (because the scanner manager application was not flagged for removal during the version 10 upgrade)... The result (of course) was that the now Win-10 notebook would awake from sleep state, but the bio-scanner wouldn't wake up. The cure was to pull out the manager app (Win-10's "Hello" now does it's own biometrics management) and the old driver, let Win-10 locate and install the compliant driver - Problem solved!

Cheers!
John

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