Background tasks using 100% CPU and not stopping once computer is not idle

The "Idle Scan" being disabled; is that the one in the main Settings > Computer Scans with the choice of OFF, Weekly, Monthly, Quarterly ?  This is only for the Idle Time Full System scan; the other scan processes should still be running in Idle Time.

 

Interesting that you mentioned the Google Desktop; that may be what is going on in that Watch is seeing the changed file due to Google indexing everything.  Good point.

 

The Insight database (at Symantec) would definitely have more files that what we have running in memory.  Can I ask how many files are Skipped during a 'fresh' Full System scan on your system?  'Fresh' would be after a Full Update cycle as this would clean the 'scanned Trust levels' and only leave the Insight Trust flags.  I would like to know as you have had your internal database this long and would like to compare that number to others.

 

Thanks for the information and patience.

The last full system scan I did was a few days ago.  Out of a total of 153,385 files and directories scanned, 4,624 were listed as "Trusted Files" and 707 were listed as Skipped Files.  I'm guessing the "Trusted" ones are the Insight trusted ones and the skipped ones were the ones that had already been scanned.

 

The total number of "Processes & Startup Items" was only 2,467.  So the number of "Trusted" was nearly double that.

 

My understanding as to how the background Insight scan works, is that it keeps track of what programs (and the dlls used by them) have run recently and then looks up the the trust values on those when the scan kicks off. 

This differs from running Norton Insight manually by clicking "refresh" in the N.I. window.  In that case only running processes are checked.

 

The reason I believe this to be true is that clicking on "refresh" takes at most a minute to check the trust values on the running processes.  The background "Norton Insight Submission" task takes about 8 1/2 minutes and the "Norton Insight Scan" task takes about a minute.  If the scan was only scanning running processes it wouldn't run as long.

 

Also I've run a file monitoring program in the past and I've seen NIS looking at programs I've run in the past 24 hours while doing the scan.

 

 

It might be a good idea to do a NRT just to clean out the local Insight data base from whatever junk is in there, but there's no poing in doing so until the Insight server starts working again.

Message Edited by Morac on 06-02-2009 05:43 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I've read most of the thread, but may have missed a few things.

 

First, I haven't seen what I consider is the real problem:  The interrupt mechanism.

 

When a program is doing something it either has a process for being interrupted or not.  The normal process consists of repetitive tests for certain kinds of signals that an interrupt is necessary: The ESC key being pressed, for example, or CTRL-F4; or the mouse clicking various keys.

 

This process of checking is called "interception."  Some interception methods are written into basic computer language and others have to be written into the code.

 

Here's the problem, however it is done, each interception uses up a small increment of time.  If one were to place an intercept test between every line of computer code, it would double or triple or even quadruple the length of time the program takes to do its work.  This means that interceptions must be reasonably placed at key points.

 

Now I don't work for Symantec so I don't know their actual programming design, but logic dictates that it is something like this:  Before and after each file is checked for signatures, the program checks to see if the computer is idle.  While it is in the middle of checking a file, it waits for an interception until it has completed the task.  This has a lot of good points.  It ususally takes a matter of microseconds to check a file so the user won't even notice the hundredth of a second delay between pressing the cancel key or taking the computer out of idle and actually getting back control of the computer.  Also it prevents the problem of the software re-examining a long file time after time because it was interrupted in the middle of its check.

 

But that brings up to the problem.  What if Norton is in the middle of checking a really long file, one that takes over a minute (or five or ten minutes) to check, one of those large compressed installation or backup files?  I am sure most of us have noticed, if we watch the full system check, how sometimes the program just seems to have locked up on some file or another; and how pressing cancel seems to have no affect ... until five or more minutes pass.  Well, that probably means the app hasn't gotten to the point in its code where it runs another interception.

 

IF this is a fair description of what is happening, then it is easy to see why once Norton is immersed in checking certain files, we are going to experience what appears to be a lock up.

 

Are there things that can be done?  Yes, both by the user and by Symantec.

 

I have seen other hard-working CPU intensive programs written that allow the user to determine the level of CPU usage.  Mozy, for example, is an online backup program.  Recognizing that if the user makes a lot of changes to the files on the computer, it would result in congestion during the backup time, it gives the user a number of options for minimizing that impact.  The user can pick times for the backups or -- the method I prefer -- choose the level of CPU usage.  This level setting is called "priority" and can be seen in the TaskManager if you right-click on any process.  You can also set the VIEW of the TaskManager to include the Priority Column.  If you do this you will see that not all processes are running at NORMAL priority.  Some, like WinLogon, are always high; My Synaptics process is above normal; some are below normal.

 

The Symantec engine ccSvcHst.exe launched by the system (not the user) is always NORMAL.  Now this would see to give it parity with all those other process with a Normal setting.  Yes, but no.  It has parity, but its demands are higher, so it simply bullies its way around all those other processes.  You notice the impact at its worst when you find you can't use the other processes because Norton around has control of the system.

 

My workaround has been to reset the Priority of ccSvsHst.exe when I absolutely have to get my computer (actually, usually its my wife's computer that is needed instantly) back.  I right-click, select priority and change it to Belownormal; and that does the trick within a number of seconds.

 

Now just recently I have noticed that TaskManager gives me a warning about doing this and then when I try to do this it won't let me.  Fortunately, I use Norton's own Systemworks tool, Process Viewer, to accomplish the same task; and have no problem.  Why TaskManager has suddenly begun resisting I don't know, nor do I know if this is an all-the-time behavior or a just-sometimes behavior.  With the Process Viewer available, it just isn't an issue for me.  The priority I assign stays with ccSvsHst.exe until I change it back or until I reboot the computer.

 

What I would like to see is Norton designing a better priority assignment into the process.  If this is a continuing issue, then there must be a way they could do that.  Once option is to index those files that take a lot of time to scan and when the scanner encounters those files to change the priority of the app to Belownormal; and when it finishes those files, to then shift the priority back to Normal.  Even organizing the order of scanning so that it scans the biggest files first (taking advantage of idle time immediately it appears) and getting them out of the way under the Belownormal setting might be a real fix to the problem.

 

 Anyway, for now, for user with this problem, the workaround seems to still be there.  What would be useful I think, both for us users and for Symantec, would be for more users to try this workaround and to report back on its effectiveness.

Addendum:

 

MS' Taskmanager no longer allows the right to change the priority of a process in the System category, at least not ccSvcHost.ext.

 

However, there is a nifty little process viewer with a better interface than TaskManager that will give you the capability.  It was a co-development with MS and is now also a component of the current NSW.  You can get it as a standalone from PCWorld at PrcView.

 

Enjoy.

I've decided there must be something wrong the data that NIS 2009 is using since the common.dat file in the mrcFramework folder on my machine is 50 MB, while the same file on my parent's machines are 10 MB and 15 MB.  Since they installed NIS 2009 at the same time I did and they have more crapware on their machine then I do, I can't understand why my common.dat file is 5 times the size of theirs.

 

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Google Desktop is somehow involved.  In any case, rather than nuke everything with a Norton Removal, I'm going to try doing an uninstall and re-install since I think that clears out the mrcFramework folder.  If it doesn't I guess I'll be forced to do a Norton Removal.

Well I did a complete uninstall which wiped out the mrcFramework folder and then did a reinstall of NIS2009.  After doing the first Norton Insight scan, the common.dat file is already 3 MB.  I’m not sure if this is good or bad.

Message Edited by Morac on 06-22-2009 06:27 PM