Hello
Just a brief note to express my sincere thanks to/for the Norton Community... my continued and ever growing product loyalty is directly related to the Norton Community Forums.
Just a brief personal comment... I still wish the Community was able to facilitate a dedicated Norton Community Malware Removal Forum. Just my $.02 ~ Norton product users should not have to go outside the Community for Malware Removal help.
bjm_
Hello
Just a brief note to express my sincere thanks to/for the Norton Community... my continued and ever growing product loyalty is directly related to the Norton Community Forums.
Just a brief personal comment... I still wish the Community was able to facilitate a dedicated Norton Community Malware Removal Forum. Just my $.02 ~ Norton product users should not have to go outside the Community for Malware Removal help.
bjm_
Hi floplot
Just my $.02
I perceive Norton paid Malware removal as nothing more than a revenue stream for Norton. My personal test experience with the fee based service revealed the tech offers no more than an on demand scan product and a destructive System Recovery. McAfee offers a similar fee based service as does HP Dell etc. The tech's knowledge base is limited to the scripted playbook. Users to this Forums have reported their negative experience with fee based Malware removal services and recently close friends have angrily related their adverse negative experiences with McAfee and HP. All with the same outcome ~ System recovery. The really sad reality is that my system was not infected. My friends System were not infected. Just a scam with no refunds. Hence, my original $.02 post.
Just wishful thinking...if Symantec corporate does not see the moral need for an honest fee based - with refunds Malware removal service. Then, just naive wishful thinking the Community could fill the void.
bjm_
bjm_ wrote:...thinking the Community could fill the void.
We do, in a way, if you think about it. We've got users such as myself, Quads, e.t.c., that do do a Malware Removal Service - for free!
Hi Floating_Red
OK...guess the posts referring users to off site Malware Removal sites is just as it must be.
The Forum redesign prompted remembrances when Quads would beat down those Rootkits.
Granted 2010 products are better than ever...still wish when a user meets a stubborn infection... that those volunteers that were so helpful in the past were still able to practice their skills.
bjm_
Floating_Red wrote:
bjm_ wrote:...thinking the Community could fill the void.
We do, in a way, if you think about it. We've got users such as myself, Quads, e.t.c., that do do a Malware Removal Service - for free!
Quads No Longer does so, for forum / user reasons,
For the good Malware people have to go to another forum set up for it, so it is safer for the users PC with the infection. Or pay.
Quads
bjm
floplot pinpointed the major problem in his message at 12:29 -- that the forums are not set up to limit intervention in a thread to the one person doing the cleaning and this was not only dangerous for the person with the problem but frustrating and time wasting for the person trying to do the job.
Too many cooks can spoil the broth.
Norton are amazingly tolerant at letting us do/say things which in a sense may be against their monetary interests -- have you noticed that we have never been stopped from telling users how to save money when installing/reinstalling a product that you can buy from them. The only thing they have asked is for us not to point to individual stores which is fair enough since they have to keep all their commercial outlets happy!
Hello et al
Thank you for allowing me to re-visit an issue that I know has been discussed in the past.
Thank you all for your contribution to this thread.
floplot does raise all the issues why it just cannot be done.
huwyngr does reinforce all the issues why it just cannot be done.
Norton and the dedicated moderators are amazingly tolerant...
I wish all to appreciate. I feel very connected via this venue to the Norton Community...and value that connection beyond measure.
I wish all to appreciate that I do clearly understand that the Forum is just not set up to limit a thread to the OP and the specialist...hence, Too many cooks does spoil the broth.
In my wild imagination. I visualize a dedicated Malware Removal Forum that is set up (via a disclaimer perhaps) to limit a thread to the OP and the selected specialist... where the OP and the cleaner Guru are the only active players. The Community at large may (or not) only view the thread. A dedicated one on one Malware Removal Forum. In my vivid imagination I do not visualize any obstacle. I imagine the software is do-able. I imagine specialists that would participate. I imagine the OP appreciating the efficiency of a one on one vs. a free for all. I imagine the Community at large being open and accepting of my imaginary dedicated Forum.
Maybe, I just imagine too much?
I also imagine a dedicated Tech Support Forum.... as I offered. I just imagine too much.
I just imagine way too much.
The Community is first and foremost a product user Forum. First and foremost for product issues. The Community is a corporate extension and as such. I can imagine all I want...but, must accept reality.
I just see (in my mind) the possibilities of a little tweaking.
Well, my soap box is starting to weaken under my own imagination. So, I gratefully offer my sincerest thank you for this Feedback Forum to voice my imagination.
Respectfully submitted
bjm_
It was very difficult trying to maintain a safe venue for users with malware issues. It was bad enough trying to keep the users themselves from doing whatever came to mind, or from Google searches, while in the middle of a remediation without other posters providing suggestions. Once the required scans were obtained, it was very important to not do anything to change what was in them, so sometimes what seemed like a harmless suggestion, was a serious problem.
Those of us that assisted Quads were online for hours, keeping it straight who was at what stage, who was next, maintaining some contact to keep them patient, and obtaining scans for Quads to look at. Quads, during some of the very difficult ones, was online for 36 hours at a stretch giving instructions, waiting for the response to see what the next step was going to be. I think the old timers still remember Miz Susan and BohemianBob, both of whom were wonderful to work with. We were as happy as the OP when resolution was obtained.
There were several occasions when Quads resolved an infection that was not properly resolved by the Symantec support, possibly because the users did not have a recovery disc and refused to reformat. This is the one thing that is not thought of until it is too late. So many users have systems on laptops and desktops where no operating system disc is provided by the manufacturer. Those remediations which include reformats and little else are painful to the user and disappointing to us, which made the protection of the system that much more important.
Our users are presently sent off-line to free malware removal forums where there are rules in place as to who is allowed to assist, what is expected of the users requiring help, and a careful choice of tools and programs to protect the system, and remove the malware. Best we can do until Symantec can be talked into a malware removal board.
The option to pay for removal was always there for those who needed remediation faster than Quads could provide it. It was another choice rather than the only apparent option.
Hello delphinium
Points taken...points understood.
I do recall Miz Susan and BohemiamBob. Yes, (as just an outside observer) I recall those that were wonderful to work with & those with happy endings and do forget that behind the scenes there are thick brick walls that as an observer I would have no way to truly sense the enormous difficulties posed by those massive walls.
Your insightful message does helpfully offer me clarity to an issue that I do unintentionally simplify and do see only as the end product....not mindful of the laborious obstacles that are the rule not the exception.
Points taken...points taken with a new perspective...points taken with a greater understanding.
Thank you....
bjm_
This just points out the issue raised in that post. Failure to resolve an issue on the forum is never going to make a user as mad as failure by the professionals at a cost.
Suggestion here with sensible response from floplot
I think Norton needs to pay attention to the comment of No Refund if nothing found since they are both saying you are ill and offering to cure you. I don't think "best endeavors" really covers it.
Is Symantec considering setting up a separate Malware Removal forum for Norton users who could work one-on-one with an expert to help them remove malware infecting their system?
I've read all the pros and cons in bjm_'s thread here in the thread titled Malware Removal Forum and Quad's thread here titled Suggestion - apologies in advance for starting a new topic, but these threads are locked and I couldn't post a reply. There seems to be an increasing number of users in the NIS/NAV/N360 forums who have been infected by malware that wasn't detected by their Norton security software, and I think they deserve better than to be told to try a scan with the free Malwarebytes' Anti-Malware (MBAM) or post in the BleepingComputer or WhatTheTech forums for help. Even the MBAM forum has a board here where users can post a HijackThis log for experts to review.
I'm not comfortable recommending the Norton Power Eraser (NPE) to novices after reading posts about "safe" software inadvertently corrupted by this tool, and I don't think that most users even know that the instructions here titled How to Troubleshoot a Suspected Malware Infection are posted in the Announcements board.
Symantec might even be able to respond more quickly to emerging threats if users were posting in a central location like a Malware Removal forum.
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Windows Vista Home Premium 32-bit SP2 * NIS 2011 v. 18.6.0.29 * IE 9.0 * Firefox 8.0.0
HP Pavilion dv6835ca, Intel Core2Duo CPU T5550 @ 1.83 GHz, 3.0 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS
As someone else would say, just my .02 cents worth:
Having spent close to 6 months attending Malware Removal University, getting through the basics, their Registry Course, and just starting to really get into the specialized tools, I had to quit for a combination of personal reasons.
If you have not attended the schools, you just have no idea of what is involved in learning how to read logs, research items in logs,analyzing the results of your search(s) and then mapping out a logical approach to figure out which specialized tools to run and in which order. Especially when the scenario of malware/virus is changing on a daily basis.
Oh and if you get far enough to work on "live logs" you have to bounce everything off your instructor before you post anything, until such time as you graduate!
IMHO, if you haven't experienced the training, studying and constant knowledge updating required- you have no idea what is necessary to become a malware fighter.
I am amazed by the volunteers who are working the various malware sites. Most are Microsoft Security MVP's and I doubt we have any of them here - besides possibly Quads.
Oh and BTW, Hijack This Logs are old school, no longer recommmened on most malware sites, DDS is the current tool of choice as a starting point, so we defiantly do not need a boad to work HJT logs.
I totally agree with delphinium's post.
There are advantages of using Hijackthis over DDS, and even Bleeping Computer still uses Hijackthis in it's processes for that reason.
Quads
I like the 'other guys' being the experts on malware and being able to recommend them to users with problems that cannot be solved with the resources we have here. I also think that trying to be everything to everybody will only dilute the quality of support currently present. I know we can get better but I don't know that we can get better and bigger all at once. My choice would be to get better at supporting Norton products and recommend the 'other guys' for malware removal.
But that's just me
lmacri wrote:
delphinium wrote:
We asked several times for a separate forum, but were denied, partly due to liability questions, partly to do with the fact that Symantec charges for malware removal, and partly because an entire forum should not rely on one individual.
Hi everyone, and thanks for all the great feedback.
Here's my main concern. If a user is already paying $99 US online for a one-year subscription for N360 Premier and their system becomes infected with malware, why should they be charged an additional fee for having that malware removed from their system or be re-directed to another forum for help?
I don't see why Symantec couldn't assign a few of their own malware removal experts to help out Quads and a few other pre-approved volunteers in a separate Malware Removal forum. I've posted in the WhatTheTech Virus, Spyware & Malware Removal forum (who still request a HijackThis log) and the malware expert assigned to work with me one-on one was the only other person allowed to post in my thread. Symantec could also restrict use of the forum by requiring users to validate their subscription with their product activation key (along with that ubiquitous "I Accept" button to accept the Terms & Conditions) before they started a new thread.
Either that, or Symantec needs to open a PayPal account and start rewarding the volunteer malware experts who do their tech support for them.
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Windows Vista Home Premium 32-bit SP2 * NIS 2011 v. 18.6.0.29 * IE 9.0 * Firefox 8.0.0
HP Pavilion dv6835ca, Intel Core2Duo CPU T5550 @ 1.83 GHz, 3.0 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS
Hi,
I go to the doctor when I don't feel good. He determines that I have cancer. He refers me to a specialist.
I go to the dentist with a tooth ache. He determines that I need a root canal and refers me to a specialist
I go to the Norton Community with a problem. They determine that I have a malware problem and refer me to a specialist.
Is there a logical pattern here?
As for opening a new forum to deal with the malware problem I'm hard pressed to justify the time, talent and budget necessary for an undefined benefit, if any. I'm still a strong supporter of the concept of 'we do our best to support our product and we recommend those who are best at supporting their product(s)'.
Yes, other problems are being solved by one and all but they are done as a courtesy and not a part of the 'official' support provided by the community here. If your fly is unzipped I wouldn't send you to a tailor to get it fixed. If it can't be fixed I would not attempt to try.
I am still waiting for a show stopping arguement that will convince me that Norton Community Forums needs to be the be all and end all of the places a user can come to get help with any problem. I will support and strive to be a part of the Norton Community that is the only place where Norton product users come to get the very best support for their product. That to me is a big enough job that I'm not ready to consider taking on more.
As for the pay part I won't comment here
lmacri wrote:
delphinium wrote:
We asked several times for a separate forum, but were denied, partly due to liability questions, partly to do with the fact that Symantec charges for malware removal, and partly because an entire forum should not rely on one individual.
Hi everyone, and thanks for all the great feedback.
Here's my main concern. If a user is already paying $99 US online for a one-year subscription for N360 Premier and their system becomes infected with malware, why should they be charged an additional fee for having that malware removed from their system or be re-directed to another forum for help?
[...]
Perhaps an alternative would be for Norton to include access to the 'Norton Virus Removal Assurance' service as a basic feature of the product. At the current $8.99 for access to 'unlimited virus removals' for the duration of the subscription, it's not going to have that much of an impact on the overall product purchase price.
elsewhere,
Does 'Norton Virus Removal Assurance' include malware?
Norton's basic purpose (regarding malware) is to keep the nasties from getting on your system; as we all know, once they've got themselves entrenched on a machine, the installed Norton (or anybody else's) product isn't going to do much good. So that (plus, for 360, the backup and utilities functions--and for Premier, the additional 23GB of online backup space) is what our $99 subscription is paying for. And with a little safe computing knowledge & practice, it's all most of us are going to need. So rather than making everybody's subscription cost cover the cost of recruiting and training an army of people like Quads, Norton keeps the basic subscription cost down, but offers folks who are especially concerned that they might play host to a nasty the option to pay for some "insurance"; one of the strengths of this approach (besides keeping the cost for the rest of us down) is that the number of people choosing to buy that "insurance" gives them a rough, forward-looking metric for forecasting how many malware removal experts they ought to employ and train.
Sure, there's some intuitive appeal to the idea that if Norton's product "fails" and a nasty slips by, then Norton ought to provide the help to clean it up as a service, a sort of warranty. But as we here also know too well, there are an awful lot of users who will override their security software--even if they have to come here to ask somebody how to do it!--so they can download or run a program, or access a website, which they "know" is safe. And, with millions of users, there are bound to be "a few" who--either by sheer bad luck or because they're out there browsing some unsavory parts of the web looking for bargains, porn, or the like--are going to cross paths with the latest and greatest code that our malware-writing adversaries have produced, before anybody else has discovered it and written it into the definitions or behaviors that Norton can look for.
If Norton is going to bulk up its staff with experienced veterans of the malware wars with the training and the wisdom not to render a lot of peoples' PCs unbootable--and then insure themselves against the occasional human mistake that somebody might sue them to pay for--well, that costs money, which has to come from somewhere. So at some point, we have to ask ourselves--on behalf of all the millions of users like us whom we're looking out for--do we really want to all have to subsidize that for the folks I described in the preceding paragraph...or would justice dictate they pay for it themselves, with a little extra "premium" or a $99 "consult fee"?
Honestly, though, I'm not cold-hearted enough to completely answer my own question with the latter--which is why I'm glad that, just as we have so many good folks here who are willing to volunteer their time to help users keep their Norton protection humming so they'll never have a malware infection, there are also so many good people out there on those other free forums, who maybe don't care to spend their time on subscription issues and folks trying to run plain, ordinary backups (etc.) but are happy to put their formal malware removal training and years of proven expertise to work digging nasties out at the root(kit). 
So I guess my bottom line (finally, eh?) is that I think the current approach makes a lot of sense.
