NIS 2012 Rating by Consumer Reports

In its June 2012 issue, Consumer Reports ranked Norton Internet Security 2012 in the middle of the pack of paid security suites (eighth out of 14), and gave NIS its worst rating of Poor for "Updating," which they explain "shows how quickly the product is able to protect against new malware."

 

Historically, most every testing organization out there has consistently placed Norton at or near the top of the rankings. And every time I open my NIS, it shows that the most recent update was within the past few minutes, so it's not like I'm waiting days for updates to deal with new threats. Does anybody have insight as to how CR tested Norton, and why it received a mediocre rating overall and a poor one in that particular category?

 

--JorgeA

 

Symantec does not add definitions for brand new malware as fast as many other anti-virus companies.

 

However, Norton protects as well or better than most against new malware anyway, using cloud reputation detection and SONAR technology, which doesn't rely on traditional signature updates to detect malicious code and/or behaviour.

Hi JorgeA,

 

Good question!  I too am puzzled by the rating that Norton received for "updating."  Of course, every year Consumer Reports publishes its evaluation of security programs, and every year I am mystified by some of their recommendations, which never seem to agree with those found in similar reviews conducted by organizations dedicated exclusively to computer and software testing.  I really like Consumer Reports and appreciate what they do, but I always take their ratings of security software with a grain of salt.  How can a Pulse Update every 5 to 15 minutes be considered "poor?"

 

On the other hand, their article on what Facebook knows about you (even if you have not joined Facebook) is must reading.


SendOfJive wrote:
How can a Pulse Update every 5 to 15 minutes be considered "poor?"

 

 


The update frequency doesn't really say anything about the ability to detect 0-day malware unless you know which malware detections are being added. If the updates add definitions for malware that was detected the day before by other anti-virus programs, the product in question is still a day behind the others, even if the updates come every 10 minutes.

 

Compare the amount of detections being added by Norton:

 

http://www.symantec.com/security_response/definitions/multipledaily/

 

with those added by Kaspersky, example:

 

http://www.kaspersky.com/viruswatchlite

Hi Bombastus,

 

CR is a non-technical publication, and it seems more likely to me that when they rate Updating, it has to do with how quickly a local signature database is refreshed, rather than the specific signatures that each update contains.  The way they define "Updating," though, is somewhat ambiguous as to whether they are using a measure of quantity or quality. 

Just keep in mind that CR are the same folks who stated at the beginning of the story:

 

"You can get good protection, especially against online threats, free of charge"  and  "Our evaluations .... turned up free programs that should adequately protect all but the most at-risk Internet users from malware ....."

 

Okay, show of hands:

 

How many want "Good Protection" ?

 

How many want "Adequate Protection" ?

 

 

 

 

 

soj:
> How can a Pulse Update every 5 to 15 minutes be considered "poor?"

 

When content is more important than frequency.

 

> CR is a non-technical publication, and it seems more likely to me that when they rate Updating,
> it has to do with how quickly a local signature database is refreshed,
> rather than the specific signatures that each update contains.

 

There's an assumption in there.

 

> The way they define "Updating," though, is somewhat ambiguous
> as to whether they are using a measure of quantity or quality.

 

No kidding.

 

I more or less agree with you though.  Cars are pretty technical, and CR does a pretty good job of evaluating them. I would say though that that's one of the few areas that they do a good job of.

 

Specifically with regard to this issue, unless CR knows the _content_ of the NIS updates their opinion isn't worth much on that aspect of their study.

 

There's an old saying: even a blind pig finds an acorn sometime.  Meaning I don't disagree with their overall conclusion.

 

It seems to me that Symantec's products are not of the same quality that they previously were.  Their reluctance not to participate in the AV Comparisons study, and issue a lame excuse instead, was one indicator of a possible concern about being evaluated.

 

A look at the threads in this forum, going back aways, shows that Symantec's ability to fix problems, which was never speedy, has deteriorated further.

 

The previously disclosed loss of NAV source code, and the claim on Friday of NIS source code also, if true, may be diverting effort.  It's tough to believe anything you hear about this.

I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for many years, and usually trust them. However, their computer security advice I find dubious at best.

 

Back in 2008, I used their top-rated  (now rated #4) pay security suite for my computer, my wife's, and  recommended it to friends. It worked quite well for nearly a year, until my wife's computer got infected by a Javascript exploit on a compromised web site. Within a week or so, to my embarrassment, the same thing happened to a very good friend who was using the same security suite on my recommendation.

 

I tested out various (numerous!) security suites before settling on one. I chose the one that gave this message when re-visiting the infected web site:

 

“Norton 360 has blocked the JS.Downloader Trojan.  Your system is safe”.

 

And though I've now decided that NIS better serves my needs, it will take more than an article in Consumer Reports to make me leave Norton!!

<< Their reluctance not to participate in the AV Comparisons study, and issue a lame excuse instead, was one indicator of a possible concern about being evaluated. >>

 

There are a couple or more of assumptions there too! <g>

 

I'm not a subscriber to CR so I don't know what they say about how they did it.

Wow, I come back into the forum and see there's been a boatload of good discussion!

 

The way CR breaks down the protection categories is indeed confusing. For example, NIS gets a "very good" when it comes to protecting "against live exploits from websites" (the ""Net threats" category) and a "good" with respect to "effectiveness scanning the PC for malware" (the "Virus scan" category). So, since bottom-line we're already getting good or very good protection, in my mind it's not clear why it's important to "quickly" be able to protect against new malware (the "Updating" category). And, would I rather have a product that can protect me better against existing threats as a whole, or one that can protect me better against brand-new threats -- what are the chances I'll run into one of these new ones in the time it takes Norton to devise a fix for it?

 

Maybe a trip to their website (if one has an online CR account) would provide details as to what goes into the various categories, what the actual scores were, how quickly is "quickly," how they conducted the tests, etc.

 

--JorgeA

 

In its June 2012 issue, Consumer Reports ranked Norton Internet Security 2012 in the middle of the pack of paid security suites (eighth out of 14), and gave NIS its worst rating of Poor for "Updating," which they explain "shows how quickly the product is able to protect against new malware."

 

Historically, most every testing organization out there has consistently placed Norton at or near the top of the rankings. And every time I open my NIS, it shows that the most recent update was within the past few minutes, so it's not like I'm waiting days for updates to deal with new threats. Does anybody have insight as to how CR tested Norton, and why it received a mediocre rating overall and a poor one in that particular category?

 

--JorgeA

 


joen wrote:

soj:
> How can a Pulse Update every 5 to 15 minutes be considered "poor?"

 

When content is more important than frequency.

 

> CR is a non-technical publication, and it seems more likely to me that when they rate Updating,
> it has to do with how quickly a local signature database is refreshed,
> rather than the specific signatures that each update contains.

 

There's an assumption in there.

 

> The way they define "Updating," though, is somewhat ambiguous
> as to whether they are using a measure of quantity or quality.

 

No kidding.

 

I more or less agree with you though.  Cars are pretty technical, and CR does a pretty good job of evaluating them. I would say though that that's one of the few areas that they do a good job of.

 

Specifically with regard to this issue, unless CR knows the _content_ of the NIS updates their opinion isn't worth much on that aspect of their study.

 

There's an old saying: even a blind pig finds an acorn sometime.  Meaning I don't disagree with their overall conclusion.

 

It seems to me that Symantec's products are not of the same quality that they previously were.  Their reluctance not to participate in the AV Comparisons study, and issue a lame excuse instead, was one indicator of a possible concern about being evaluated.

 

A look at the threads in this forum, going back always, shows that Symantec's ability to fix problems, which was never speedy, has deteriorated further.

 

The previously disclosed loss of NAV source code, and the claim on Friday of NIS source code also, if true, may be diverting effort.  It's tough to believe anything you hear about this.


 

 

Hi, joen.  Comments as follows:

 

Update frequency:  Considering that pulse updates come down as often as every few minutes - I don't think Symantec can be faulted for update frequency.  Thus, I infer that CR is commenting on update rapidity when it comes to zero-day exploits.

 

Now, one of the things known about NIS is its effectiveness at using heuristic scanning to capture new variants of malware -  where all that has changed between the old variant and the new variant is its signature.  The heuristic scanning in NIS is quite effective at "unmasking" an existing piece of malware that has simply changed its "coat" (and thus no longer matches its signature in the scanning database).

 

However, one of the inevitable design compromises that occur when using an effective heuristic scanner is an increased prevalence of false-positives.  This is unavoidable.  Thus, in order to prevent false-positives from items that should no longer be "trapped" by heuristic scanning - any new-signature-database-updates must also interact with the heuristic scanner - in order to inform the heuristic scanner that "yes, we know about this the other way - you don't need to pitch-a-fit over this one because we are catching it by its signature".

 

Therefore, the "update" for a newly-templated piece of malware for NIS is not just its updated signature-set.  It is also the changes necessary to inform the heuristic scanner to look for the new malware's infection-pathway - so the subsequent releases of that malware in a new "coat" will be properly trapped by the heuristic scanner.

 

Note:  Malware writers know the above.  Thus, for a new piece of malware to be truly effective for even two days - the malware writers must re-engineer their malware such that not only does it have a new signature (so it is not detected by signature-based scanning) but they must also re-engineer the infection pathway in such a manner that the heuristic detector does not go "aha - I know what you are" and squash the infection dead using that mechanism instead.

 

 

Keeping the "smarts" in a good heuristic-scanner up-to-date without creating a storm of false-positives is no easy task.  However, it is the only methodology that makes the malware writers work hard to produce any malware version that has a viable attack vector for more than 24-48 hours.

 

Having a good heuristic scanner makes run-of-the-mill "script kiddy" attacks non-viable - since the "script kiddies" are not capable of re-engineering the malware at a level where its infection-pathway is changed such that the heuristic scanner is fooled.  This ensures NIS is effective against the vast majority of "dingbat" malware - as well as the pool of "typical" malware-in-the-wild that are spread by botnet-infected machines, spam, and/or poorly-protected websites with mediocre or incompetent webmasters.

 

So, the "fight" devolves to a cat-and-mouse game between the most-sophisticated malware writers - and the top-tier Anti-Malware companies - such as Symantec.  IMO, everybody else who does not have an effective heuristic scanner falls by the wayside into the also-ran category.

 

From the above - it also becomes obvious that having a "trapping" mechanism that quickly detects the newest release variants is an important part of keeping an Anti-Malware product effective.  And then, once "trapped" - it is just as important to have the ability to "template" the malware.  This "templating" includes devising signature detection that does not false-positive on files supplied with Consumer Software as well as investigation of the infection-pathway along with devising methods to detect the infection process which do not false-positive on actions taken by legitimate software.

 

If you are wondering whether "devising methods to detect the infection process which do not false-positive on actions taken by legitimate software" is technically demanding...   Well, duh...  Yeah, dude, it is!   :smileytongue:

 

 

So, Symantec are on the horns of a dilemma.  Do they release a signature update - pronto like?  Yeah, that's a good idea.  Do they follow that up with an update which adds the proper "smarts" to the heuristic detection engine?  Yeah, that's a good idea as well.

 

Does devising an update to the heuristic engine take a little while longer both for development and testing for false-positive elimination?  Yes, Sherlock - it does.

 

 

Please let us know if you are able to devise a method of overcoming the limitations of Computer Science such that Symantec can snap their fingers and come up with instant updates that are reliable, effective and do not create false positives.  If so, I'm sure Symantec will be at your door shortly - prostrating themselves at your feet and pleading for you to take their money and show them how.   :smileyvery-happy:

 

 

Now, explain the above in words-of-one-syllable to CR - such that CR understands the problem.  And then, get CR to explain that to the masses of the great unwashed - in such a manner as they understand the difference between "engineering that works" and "engineering that looks good".

 

As usual, should any of your Impossible Missions Group be captured or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.  Good Luck Mr. Phelps.  You're going to need it.  :smileywink:

 

 

Hope this helps your understanding.

 

hi, have you got a link to the message you were mentioning about NIS source code on FRIDAY? was that this past Friday? I am wondering why Norton is forcing me to download a 83 megabyte+ live update since my pulse updates have stopped working/updating? maybe they are wiping the slate clean in regards to stolen NIS code, and sending me a new cleaner virus definition file...this is like the 4th time I've had to download a huge file on dial-up and it's getting really old, since it ties up the computer and can't basically do my job as a internet vendor

twixt,

 

Excellent summary of the situation -- it really covers all the bases!

 

--JorgeA

 

ja:
> Consumer Reports ranked Norton Internet Security 2012 in the middle of the pack of paid security suites (eighth out of 14)


hu:

> There are a couple or more of assumptions there too!


two-shay.  :)

 

But I stand by my comment that their recent excuse for not participating in the AV-Comparatives product testing was lame.

 

Compare these statements from Symantec:

 

10/30/2008:
"Symantec Corp. today announced that Norton AntiVirus 2009 and Norton Internet Security 2009 received top ratings in reviews from two of the industry’s _preeminent, independent_ testing bodies, AV-Comparatives and AV-Test.org."

 

1/20/2010:
"Symantec Corp. today announced that its industry-leading security products received top reviews from two _respected independent_ testing bodies, AV-Comparatives and AV-Test.org."

 

no date:
"Stephen Trilling is the chief technology officer at Symantec. Trilling, a sixteen-year veteran at the company, is responsible for developing the overall technology vision for the company, driving cross-company engineering initiatives and collaboration, and overseeing Symantec’s shared engineering organizations. ... Under Trilling’s leadership, Symantec’s security products consistently achieved top protection ratings in independent reviews, winning such awards as the AV-Comparatives Product of the Year Award ...."

 

and then,

Tony_Weiss  3/5/12:
"Symantec has long been an advocate of independent “whole product” or “real-world” tests that most closely represent the interests of consumers and utilize all of the proactive technologies provided with a product, as opposed to “static” tests that only test an individual component.

 

Currently AV-Comparatives does not offer a subscription focused SOLELY on these “whole product” or “real-world” types of tests.  At this time, Symantec has chosen not to subscribe to AV-Comparatives’ testing program for 2012.  Our philosophy is to participate in tests that have high relevance and meaning for consumers, and most accurately align with their real-world need for comprehensive protection and machine cleanup from evolving online threats.

 

We will continue to seek out and participate in a range of tests that meet these standards to measure our products’ efficacy and performance."

 

We're still waiting.

joen

 

<< We're still waiting. >>

 

Good idea ....


joen wrote:

ja:
> Consumer Reports ranked Norton Internet Security 2012 in the middle of the pack of paid security suites (eighth out of 14)


hu:

> There are a couple or more of assumptions there too!


two-shay.  :)

 

But I stand by my comment that their recent excuse for not participating in the AV-Comparatives product testing was lame.

 

Compare these statements from Symantec:

 

10/30/2008:
"Symantec Corp. today announced that Norton AntiVirus 2009 and Norton Internet Security 2009 received top ratings in reviews from two of the industry’s _preeminent, independent_ testing bodies, AV-Comparatives and AV-Test.org."

 

1/20/2010:
"Symantec Corp. today announced that its industry-leading security products received top reviews from two _respected independent_ testing bodies, AV-Comparatives and AV-Test.org."

 

no date:
"Stephen Trilling is the chief technology officer at Symantec. Trilling, a sixteen-year veteran at the company, is responsible for developing the overall technology vision for the company, driving cross-company engineering initiatives and collaboration, and overseeing Symantec’s shared engineering organizations. ... Under Trilling’s leadership, Symantec’s security products consistently achieved top protection ratings in independent reviews, winning such awards as the AV-Comparatives Product of the Year Award ...."

 

and then,

Tony_Weiss  3/5/12:
"Symantec has long been an advocate of independent “whole product” or “real-world” tests that most closely represent the interests of consumers and utilize all of the proactive technologies provided with a product, as opposed to “static” tests that only test an individual component.

 

Currently AV-Comparatives does not offer a subscription focused SOLELY on these “whole product” or “real-world” types of tests.  At this time, Symantec has chosen not to subscribe to AV-Comparatives’ testing program for 2012.  Our philosophy is to participate in tests that have high relevance and meaning for consumers, and most accurately align with their real-world need for comprehensive protection and machine cleanup from evolving online threats.

 

We will continue to seek out and participate in a range of tests that meet these standards to measure our products’ efficacy and performance."

 

We're still waiting.


 

 

See this Message Thread:  http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Internet-Security-Norton/Why-is-Norton-not-participating-in-AV-Comparatives-testing/td-p/672299

 

 

Considering that you quoted Message 18 in that thread - I assume you read the rest of the contents of that thread - including the info in Messages 33 through 40.

 

I find it difficult to understand how my comments in Messages 37 and 40 of that thread could have been more clear.  Add that info to the extra detail mentioned in Message 12 of this thread - and to me the problem with testing methodology developed by people who don't understand the difference between "engineering that works" and "engineering that looks good" becomes painfully and blatantly obvious.

 

 

When I start to see people complaining vociferously about poor testing methodology on the part of AV Comparatives and CR - at the level found in your responses here in regards to Symantec - I will consider taking said comments more seriously.  Until then, I don't think it makes much sense to continue to "selectively" slag Symantec - which I believe was also made painfully and blatantly obvious in the previous round of discussions on this subject.

 

 

EOT

 

I'm not sure if this has been offered before, but just in case -- while looking for something else, I came across this report on AV effectiveness. The test was sponsored by Symantec, but there wasn't anything there that struck me as self-serving. Maybe the test was prompted by the quarrel with AV Comparatives, and it may reflect Symantec's view of what a full and accurate battery of tests should comprise.

 

Apologies if it's already been posted, but I thought it would offer reassurance to those who hadn't seen it and were concerned about the Consumer Reports article.

 

--JorgeA

 

 

Jorge,

 

Thanks for the link but it doesn't work for me ....

Hmm, I guess we can't access it directly.

 

Try going to this page instead, and then clicking where it says, "Download PC Total Protection Suites 2012." It'll open the document in your PDF viewer.

 

--JorgeA