Norton seems to be working hard to lose my business!

I have loved Norton Security for more than 20 years.  I have 2 subscriptions and all of my computers protected, and many friends computers protected.  But Norton is going to lose my business when my subscriptions end later this year.  I just turned off auto renewal.

This company is going crazy with manipulative steps in the software and on the web site.  for example, I do not want to use LifeLock, and I do not want to have the Dark Web monitored for my email address.  Yet I was unable to access my account information without agreeing to dark web monitoring!!! 

Next are all of the new pop-up notifications in Windows Edge.  These are not Windows notifications, they don't disappear or move to the notification bar.  They require me to close them to regain my screen space!  This is terrible! Do I really need to be notified that the browser is authorized to access my webcam every time I open a browser window?  

Norton has traditionally given great control to the end user of how the software behaves, what we need to see and what we want turned off.  But after searching the settings area then searching the forums, I cannot find any way to disable these notifications.

Norton, you need to get back to being user friendly.  Don't FORCE us to use features we don't want.  Don't pester us with useless notifications.  Don't keep pestering us to subscribe to services that we don't want!  

If the software behavior doesn't improve before the fall, my subscriptions will end and I will uninstall Norton from all my systems.  Windows Defender works very well, folks, and I don't need to have security software this annoying to be protected.

Norton 360 ver. 22.20.1.69
Windows 10 professional (though it applies to all versions)

@anon743 - agreed, lets try to keep this open. At the very least, this serves as a platform for users of the AV product, for both home and business users, that have concerns, or issues, with either the marketing or technical direction that the company is going in. There have been some excellent comments from long-time and technical users on this thread, and I think that keeping this open, will benefit Norton/Symantec in the long-term. Most input for technical threads tend to concentrate on specific or deep internal issues or bugs, false positives etc., but Norton needs to be kept aware of the "irritation level" felt by some, who do NOT like the incessant "trumpet blowing", or marketing "reminders", about VPN, or password managers etc. and the FUD leading non-technical users to doubt the in-built ability of the underlying OS, and modern browser technology, to fend off "bad stuff" (or "bad actors" to quote the security buzzword).

I think the other main concern, is the apparrent lack of technical focus on the CORE AV components, by the "dilution" of effort, possibly caused by the re-deployment of internal teams across things like VPN, and performance add-ons, and unnecessary password managers.

Norton/Syamantec MUST get the CORE components working well with all the supported operating systems (search for "symamsi.dll" on here for an example issue), before focusing on "other stuff" to help the accountant's Bottom-Line!

Lets hope that Norton/Symantec MIGHT be reading this AND listen, but I have never seen any direct, official employee responses on here (possibly long ago, but recently, it is anyones guess)!

P.S.- The Edge, Chrome, and Firefox browsers ALL have very good password managers built in, but the Firefox one is my favourite currently (much nicer UI IMHO).

Folks, no intention to bump but let's keep this thread alive.  Last year was a year of woes at NLL with all sorts of disservices due to Covid and all related circumstances as a result; only this time... this year, things will be much worse.

Seriously, with the tech world/community changing so fast -- TOO FAST -- and that all legacy values etc. are being force-deprecated, what will be left of us old-school folks, esp. those who absolutely need to maintain legacy setups and such?

Progress is just not progress anymore, but instead regress.  Past values and commitment can't be retained anymore... All due to the greed and ambitions in those tech industries.

Anyway feedback appreciated!

DonMannino you got it.
There will always be a mark and a shill. There will always be fear, and there will always be legions of the ignorant with checks in hand, ready to protect themselves from the “next big thing.”
That translates directly into revenue.
Don’t feel so bad. I have been a loyal Norton cheerleader since 1992. Even when it failed to find the MS Blaster worm, I deluded myself into thinking that “Norty will catch the next one, that’s for sure” That’s on the high side of 30 years !
Health and Peace.

<>

Hey td47,

You Downunder?

If so, that explains how I interpret your writing. I have a connection to the thunder and cain fields. It was another lifetime, but Perth and Sydney were intoxicating.

You mention some good topics.
Ransomware: I have never met an individual who was targeted. Extortion for data has to be worth the crime. Personal individuals are rarely targeted by this malware for many reasons - some of which are people who back up thier data (like myself), and laugh at a blackhat attempting extortion, loudly. The other is a stigma - If you let them roll you, they will be back. Then there are people who can’t afford the ransom, of can’t figure out bitcoin transfers. It is typically reserved for large businesses, who can pay - and will, fast. Hospitals, banks, institutions, etc. The average person has a much greater chance of identity theft, as their data is generally worthless. Blackhats don’t waste thier time on anything that has a reasonable probability of no return.

The threat of ransomware is a perfect example of how fear, uncertainty, and doubt occlude the ignorant and illiterate, pushing a person to “buy protection” to be “safe”. The only absolute solution to this is BACKUP YOUR DATA. The problem is solved. No useless bloatware and hundreds of dollars over years of threats being hammered into your consciousness. a $50, 500 GB SSD is all you need. I worked with an individual who would say “If you see me smiling, you better have backed up your data” - I get that.

VPN’s are even more trecherous. They tell you that a VPN will “anonymise” you and “keep you safe”. Does anyone ever ask about the VPN DNS servers and logs? Where are the servers? Who owns them? Do they leak? How do I know for sure that logs don’t exist? How do I know that the encryption is what it purports to be? How can I be assured that every time there is an update,that the server connection is not compromised with an MITM? The truth is that unless you are constantly monitoring TCP/IP packets, and know exactly what you are observing, you have no chance of any level of certainty. Even if you do, the vigilence would drive most to the brink of cutting the cables to thier collective routers.

So it is truth by assertion. Obviously the AV vendors know more than the average PC user, so we MUST listen and defend ourselves from things we cannot truly understand, like stack smashing buffer overflows, bot networks, and brute-force RDP exploits . OHHHH.

The reality is that AV systems can really only protect us from what we know is evil, Heuristics have improved by the application of AI but how do you approach fileless wormable malware? Ask a guru about that.
I have come to terms with the greed and conduct of AV vendors, and how AV systems are designed NOT to work in concert with each other. Peter Norton and John McAfee got that concept down. Even running current MWB and WinDefend - there are still BW hogging conflicts.
Don’t get me wrong. I am no fan of u$oft, but the AV actually works with the OS. There are no conflicting real-time AMSI processes. It’s fast, and very configurable through local GP settings. Hah ! The bloaware is in the OS, not the AV.

In closing, I went off a bit but it is great to know, as previously stated, that there are intelligent, critically thinking individuals that have a passion for understanding how things work. In truth, it is those like yourself that make all of this worthwhile. As long as we still have the right to say what needs to be said, there will always be an opportunity to participate in educating those who might listen.

And I beat you, I have 292 days left and I don’t use any of the software. That’s OK because the lesson I learned was worth every penny. Geez, that was the worst lie I have told all day.

In Peace,

<>

What all of this seems to be indicating to me is that Norton, since being sold to an investment firm, is no longer a software company.  They are a marketing company, and the quality of their work has gone dramatically downhill. Plus the advertising makes it completely unacceptable. 

I have said goodbye to the software, and so have all of the people I had formerly recommended NIS to in the past. Congratulations to the new owners in chasing away a LOT of loyal customers!  Maybe their pushy, fear inducing advertising will gain them enough new business to make up for us.

Hi @ AntiCorr3lation thanks for that great reply! I have my systems running both NIS and MWB, and as you say, they seem to pick up stuff that NIS does not trigger on (plus it is supposed to have that real-time "Ransomware Protection" on in the Premium version). It is a shame that MWB push the occasional AD for their VPN as well, I guess it is similar to what smaller companies used to do in the IT industry, and follow IBM business models..

I have read good reports about Windows Security (AKA Windows Defender) recently, and many users just run with that. I will probably keep just MWB like yourself, when my current subscription runs out, even though it is more expensive than Norton. I never renewed NIS via the Norton UI (and never had the Auto set on), as I could always get it for half the price by shopping around for valid subscription licences from any one of a dozen Australian resellers here. They don't make it obvious that you can key in a valid purchased subscription/Licence key yourself,and many basic, uninformed Home users would not think about using the "help" screen to enter a new Key.

My current "ticket" about the Event lof 3033 errors (and another similar ID 12) for the SAME module (symamsi.dll ) where the DLL is prevented from loading (presumably because of the same "invalid cert" issue), has been open since 21st NOV 2020, and by all accounts HAS been reproduced and seen by others who are directed to actually LOOK at the event logs. However, the current feedback I am getting is that this bad DLL (and maybe others in the  "SDS" - the Security Data Scanner module set) will be fixed by a "silent" update during one of the regular Live Update runs. It seems I will probably NOT be told it is fixed, so the other interested responder/Guru, and myself, will have to keep monitoring our Event Logs just to see that Norton are doing their job!

So, bottom line now, is that I don't feel this is a good way to support such an important (for some) core AV product, that I pay for, and have to waste MY VALUABLE TIME to check it is working well and playing nice with my operating system, that already has a good level of security built in!! Although I have 277 days subscription left, if I spot any more issues, I might just bite the bullet and uninstall it, and let Windows Security take over, with MWB doing the extra "real-time" protection with its 6 important modules.

Hi td47,

I have been meaning to respond to your last post for a few days. I can hear the intonation of your voice when I evaluate the composition of your post. I have to say that being reminded of the certificate errors made me spit out a few bees.

So a while back, my logs were overrun by a component from Symantec's AMSI (Anti-Malware Scan Interface) that used a credential that was not per Microsoft's schema. I looked at the strings in the code (symamsi.dll) and could see that there was a Microsoft cert, of at least the guts of one. Regardless, Win 10 would not load the dll. Certificate requirements are not news.

I watched the progression of code modules load prior to performing a scan, and M$ was true to their word. Symamsi.dll did not load. Now I'm not the smartest person in the world, and I know a little about software, and virii code (I played with many strains in a sandbox I built a few years ago). And I also know a little about the processes used to scan files on a HDD / SSD. My thinking is that not only are my logs plugged up, but if the dll file with the bad cert does not load, you could hypothesize that maybe the level of aggression, or sensitivity in applying heuristics will affect the results of my scan. It was only after no one in this community would even take a stab at answering my questions about AMSI, that in the several years I used the 360 model, the software found only one item, and it was a false positive. I coupled MWB with Norton because I trusted, and still do, MWB;s product. It found many items, while the bloated pig was taking inventory of every single byte on my root drive(s).

It really pissed me off. The gurus were nice, but you can tell when there is obfuscation going on. After I was told to remove and reinstall three times to solve the cert problem ( which I knew would not work, but hey !  Who am I?) and then found that all my firewall settings were gone, that was the beginning of the end.

I had to laugh when I read the end of your post. You could not be more right ! If you had a choice of doing one thing really, I mean really well, and doing ten things that suck badly, what would you do?

".... and NOT add in all sorts of "other" differentiators that I JUST DON'T WANT OR NEED!"  - I love this statement. To me, it says much about you not just as a customer, but as an intelligent, critically thinking individual who is caught in the swift and unrelenting rip currents of stupidity. Sometimes you have to say what needs to be said.

My conclusion is that it is about money and marketing. You have to keep up with the piezo beepers and LED's that other vendors are loading into the the little box. When Symantec shoved a VPN into the mix, that validated my thoughts. They will not spend the few dollars for a root or trust cert, or the time to integrate it into the AMSI code, but they can put together a POS VPN and and bump up the margins. So when the talk of the town is about how Symantec is really taking the lead in protecting its customers from evil blackhats, the people who really know can see that its a case of the emperor's new clothes. I imagine they had a sales and marketing blow out to introduce, which at the time, was a real piece of work, it probably still is. Code only gets fixed on a new release cycle, depending on risk. Who knows what is really different about a new revision of code. With memory, disk space, and fast uP's s filling in 90% of the gap in AV performance, they can ride that train right to the bank.

As much as I loathe M$, I am now using stock WinDefend only one a couple machines, and the other is coupled with MWB.

I tell you the truth, when you cancel your Symantec autopay, it will feel like a massive stone was taken off your back.

It's a good feeling, when self-respect has enough inertia to turn one away from something that isn't working - anymore.

In Peace.

<>

 

@AntiCorr3lation  I wish I had seen your post about loss of the FW policy data! I had a bunch of stuff in there blocking suspect sites that the Billion Router logged as port scanning (from the intrusion log) just in case they got through an open port, that dissapeared after an R&R becuase a Guru thought it might fix the Event 3033 issues where the Windows 10 OS was complaining about a couple of the Norton modules not having a proper certificate! I was not warned about that, so now I am doubly annoyed, becuase the issue is STILL not fixed, and I did suggest in that post that Norton should concentrate on their core code and JUST make sure that their AV internals works well with the OS, and NOT add in all sorts of "other" differentiators that I JUST DON'T WANT OR NEED! 

td47,

Agreed with the browser bloat, and even if you surgically extracate Norton Safe Webs from both system drive and the registry, it will be back. It was the VPN for me - the tipping point. When I brought up my dismay on this forum, I got nothing from Norton. I guess that everyone else is happy to have a VPN activated without their knowledge. Maybe that has changed. And what of the total inability to backup your policy data? It took (notice the past tense) me about 4 hours to properly configure the firewall. After the second remove-and-reinstall, I was not a happy user I brought that up on this forum also. I guess most people don't even know what a firewall is.

I am disgusted with LifeLock. It's not the software, but the idea that you can scare people into buying it. I would guess that a majority of users have no concept of the mechanics of lifeLock (and don't ask) - They hear $1,000,000 to pay for a "serious" intrusion, and a conference room table with Hollywood-like, serious actors dressed as high-priced "jurus meretrix" (my words). It's not what it does, it's what it appears to be. It's a symptom of a much larger problem.

I have spent my last reinstall efforts, in agony. I am out. I never thought this would happen, but I now use Windows Defender, locked down through local GP, and manually tweaking the firewall, which, BTW, Microsoft remote firewall management rarely approves of.

Take care, have fun, and whatever you do, don't execute any unsigned binaries !

<>

 

td47:

[...] but STILL it insists on having Norton Safe Web active, in your default browser, otherwise you get a red flag [...]

 

https://us.norton.com/feature/safe-web 
Note: new Safe Web page version is available in the US only now, more countries and localized versions will follow shortly. 

4. What's new in Norton 22.19.9.63?

  • Safe Web promotion campaign will now include “Don’t remind me again” option to snooze the UI alert permanently until uninstall/reinstall - this fixes the issue from past versions, where we used to put the product back in red state by default after 7 days.
    png_6020.png

https://community.norton.com/en/blogs/product-update-announcements/norton-security-2219963-windows-now-available 

I know what you mean @AntiCorr3lation - I smelled that rat too, when they started pushing the overblown N360 some years ago. I also felt that they were trying to add too many unwanted functions, that only added to the load on any user's system. I also saw it as a marketing thing rather than a technical need, just putting perfume on the pig really! I only ever went to NIS (Now Norton Security) on my home systems, but STILL it insists on having Norton Safe Web active, in your default browser, otherwise you get a red flag (despite modern browsers, especially Firefox and Chrome being very secure internally).

Kudos DonMannino.

I have used Norton / Symantec since 1992. I have the distinction of having met Peter Norton and spoke with him about the budding AV industry before any product releases in 1988. I was wholly impressed with his perspective and prowess. And yes, it's the same shirt.

When Norton went to 360, I think I started recognizing the bloated nature of the software structure and the limited amount of information feedback it gives the user. I know both software and hardware, and I am acutely interested with any piece of software on my machine.

The VPN. What a POS. LifeLock. A marketing gimmick for people who have no idea what encryption or the "dark web" is. It is a scam and markets to the fear, uncertainty, and doubt generated by inflammatory news stories about identity theft. I would go so far as to say that your bank of credit union is far more effective at protecting your assets. The methodologies that Blackhats use are not those used by common US criminals. They are extremely smart and know how to hide data. Massive amounts of it, and encrypt it using advanced hybrid symmetric (AES) and asymmetric (RSA) 256 bit key schedules. This is not data that anyone is able to "monitor." Even governments don't even attempt to decrypt the stolen data. They follow the money.

Unfortunately the world, and its capitalism, has turned into a cesspool.

I am in the process of testin a couple on AV / AM solutions at the moment. I will then terminate the auto-renewal. I was more loyal to Norton / Symantec than .......

It is sad.

<>

I think I may have read the wrong URL posted initially, as it seemed mostly about the forced update with auto-renew set off. Anyway, I had a look at the other one, and noted that there are many issues, but mostly with memory address reference errors, adobe, and DDE stuff, and some other products that my relative would not be running. I did set that up for her some years ago, prior to retiring (an old Dell SFF PC that our computer centre staff could not be bothered with fixing), so I know she would ONLY be using Outlook with Office 2003, IE, Firefox (the last ESR release most likely), and Chrome. She only uses it for email, word docs, and web stuff, and TeamViewer a few times a year with myself. As she is managing with a half full 80GB HDD, you can get the sense of how little facilities she uses/needs.I DO rmember the memory reference errors a while back, but since I ran the trial MalwareBytes, and it removed a lot of tracking and AD Malware, and I re-installed Norton, it went away. As she CAN still do Moonpig ordering, via Firefox, I don't think it is a total blockage, maybe a Java level, or site specific thing (or a Firefox ESR update affecting certain sites). When I know more specifi detail, I will let you know, but thanks for the feedback, most appreciated.

As for Windows 10 VS W7, yes I know what you mean, the Control Panel VS the UWP APPS Settings kluge debacle, and removal of the Home Group, what are MS thinking??!!

The memory reference error exists in different flavors.  You'll have to notice the specific hex values on each error instance to determine a pattern.  For me and another member we've determined that pattern of such memory reference error which only occurred with v22.xx installed, but not on the previous v21.7.xx.  Your Mom Ref errors may have pointed to something else, which apparently can be corrected easily -- but that's NOT our case.

I'm not sure if the Java version has to do with any problems you (or relative) have encountered.  Do note that with XP you can only have up to Java 7 (forgot the last build) installed.  You can also force-install Java 8 (with warnings) but you can't update to a later build.

As for the Win reference: it points to something even more severe, something which S/NLL may be doing the same: using software as a service and nothing else.  The client software v22 was released since late 2014 but so far only updated build versions have been released over the course of some six years.

And with that, the future can (and will) be really ugly.  You've already seen howM$ has messed up with w10; now S/NLL seems to be replicating the entire practice and screws up v22 -- no matter how many fixes they promise (and have issued).  The reputation of v22.x software has been tarnished forever......

Hi @anon743 and apologies, I think I may have read the wrong URL posted initially, as it seemed mostly about the forced update with auto-renew set off. Anyway, I had a look at the other one, and noted that there are many issues, but mostly with memory address reference errors, adobe, and DDE stuff, and some other products that my relative would not be running. I did set that up for her some years ago, prior to retiring (an old Dell SFF PC that our computer centre staff could not be bothered with fixing), so I know she would ONLY be using Outlook with Office 2003, IE, Firefox (the last ESR release most likely), and Chrome. She only uses it for email, word docs, and web stuff, and TeamViewer a few times a year with myself. As she is managing with a half full 80GB HDD, you can get the sense of how little facilities she uses/needs.I DO rmember the memory reference errors a while back, but since I ran the trial MalwareBytes, and it removed a lot of tracking and AD Malware, and I re-installed Norton, it went away. As she CAN still do Moonpig ordering, via Firefox, I don't think it is a total blockage, maybe a Java level, or site specific thing (or a Firefox ESR update affecting certain sites). When I know more specifi detail, I will let you know, but thanks for the feedback, most appreciated.

As for Windows 10 VS W7, yes I know what you mean, the Control Panel VS the UWP APPS Settings kluge debacle, and removal of the Home Group, what are MS thinking??!!

@td47

Please read my previous post again.  Also refer to my thread below:
https://community.norton.com/en/forums/recent-forced-nis-update-xp-sp3-v217xx-v22xx

The "system error" message issues are annoyances that appear under XP only.  However, this may point to even more serious issues with v22.x in that this client software version may be sagging system and memory resources in any unhealthy way.

If you're on Vista or later then you won't experience those "Application Error" messages that happen under XP.  However, the memory sagging behavior may still happen which can affect system performance.  It's the entire v22 software architecture that is in question.

As far as completing online orders, I don't know -- it can be other unrelated issues and such.  BTW do you know your relative's system specs, and what browser she's using currently?  Note that for XP there aren't many viable choices in browsers, and even so the very latest compatible version may not be compatible with certain websites.

As for not moving to w10, many power users who have a distaste of this OS will understand why.  The Agile development strategy which results in many bugs after each update, the forced update mechanism, the botched Start menus, user policy restrictions in lower-tier versions (anything below Enterprise), the cutoff of various legacy supports etc. etc. etc.  The general UX is simply nothing close to w7.

@anon743 - I have a relative who might have a similar issue, as she runs an old XP Desktop, that she says prevents her online orders from completing, ans she thinks it might be her Norton Security (used to be called Norton Internet Security a few releases ago - about 2 years back i think). I keep telling her to use her new Windows 10 laptop, but she seems "unsure" of it (she is too comfortable with her old trusty XP...).  I have not had chance to remote in and check it yet (timing can be awkward, as we are in Australia, she is in UK).  Anyway, if you get time, could you please expand on what sort of "system errors" you encountered with the newer version?

DM,

My case is a bit different.  I'm still one of the small bunch who are still using XP (SP3) on daily basis, which Norton claims to still support with its software.  But in reality, it's NOT.

Problematic software in question: client software v22.x

Ever since this version's inception back in late 2014, it has caused various system error issues particularly on XP systems.

See these threads for more details and the system error symptoms in question:

https://community.norton.com/en/forums/recent-forced-nis-update-xp-sp3-v217xx-v22xx
https://community.norton.com/en/forums/forced-norton-product-n360-upgrade-causing-application-errors-xp

These problems did NOT occur when older version v21.7.11.xx was installed and still running.

I first contacted Norton admin back in 2015 regarding the XP system error issues, and was instructed to provide data logs.  But shortly after, no measures had been taken, ie. no fixes had been issued or addressed.

As a result, I've reverted to the older v21.7.xx version, knowing that even if I would be losing some additional features, the basic AV/firewall/security mechanism, functionality and updates would still be intact.

But that all changed after March 3 (the day the Broadcom acquisition was completed), when my v21.7.11.x software was automatically removed and instead force-upgraded to v22.x, after which the infamous XP system error issues resurfaced in full.  And yet I cannot revert to v21.7.xx (via system recovery, reimaging etc.) because the forced upgrade is deployed via the Live Update route, which is NOT supposed to do so (only minor version updates and other AV definitions, signatures would be included in LU).

And as we speak, I'm sill suffering from the system error issues as reported in the aforementioned threads -- and yet NO fix has been given!!

So what the heck is NLL doing?  

As for the forced NSP-to-N360 service upgrade esp. thru Auto Renewal, that's just as annoying.  I must agree with you DM -- why force customers pay premium for services, features etc. that existing customers (on older subscription plans) never use??