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LiveUpdate issues

I'm running the Comcast version of Norton Security Suite. Per LiveUpdate, it's at the latest version (22.8.1.14), and it's running on Windows 10.

Two problems:

- LiveUpdate is not running automatically, even though "Automatic LiveUpdate" is selected in settings. Sometimes I receive notifications that there are updates available, but I always have to run LiveUpdate manually to get them.

- Most of the time, I need to run LiveUpdate repeatedly to get the latest executables and virus definition files. If I run it once, then again, it often still finds more updates. So, this has to be done repeatedly until LiveUpdate reports everything is up to date.

Automatic scans and real time protection seem to work, but I'm guessing using old executable and virus definition files due to the problems above.

Bugs? Suggestions? Thanks!

回复

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Hello Craig

Are you running any other real time security programs? Did you thoroughly uninstall your previous security program using the removal tool from the previous vendor? When you installed NSS, did you run Live Update several times restarting as necessary until no more updates were available.? Have you restarted your computer several times?

Thanks.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit Norton Core Security Plus 22.18.0.213 Core Firmware 282 I E 11 Chrome latest version.
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Re: LiveUpdate issues

@Craig:

Here're some steps you may take to resolve yr issue:

Feel free to keep posted and, thx :)

PUP Hunter PRO: Just TRYING to save the world (U) from cyber threats, A single blog post, at a time, and ONCE & FOR ALL. (A fan of Nadia_Kovacs)
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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Hi CraigG58,

In addition to above suggestions, please got to Settings > Antivirus > Updates Tab and ensure Apply Updates only on reboot is set to OFF (don't forget the Apply if you change it).

Also a long shot:  Please verify your system clock is set to the correct date/time

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> Are you running any other real time security programs? 

No.

> Did you thoroughly uninstall your previous security program using the removal tool from the previous vendor? 

There were none installed. A fresh Windows 10 install was performed, then NSS immediately after.

> When you installed NSS, did you run Live Update several times restarting as necessary until no more updates were available.? 

Yes, and I described earlier, I still need to do that manually. That's one of the problems I'm reporting here.

> Have you restarted your computer several times?

This is a trick question, right? ;^)

Of course. Besides performing routine shutdowns and start-ups, many programs need a Windows restart when installing and/or uninstalling them. That obviously includes Windows updates as well.
 

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> Turn off Network Cost Awareness temporarily.

This was indeed on, and I've turned it off. I'll be sure to turn it back off after the uninstall/reinstall.

> Run Norton AutoFix

Done, no problems found.

> If you're also using some other real-time security software, plz browse this page (link is external) to clean out that item thoroughly.

I'm not running any other real-time security software, or any other type of security software at all for that matter.

> Running Norton Removal Tool may help U out fast. Then, re-download and perform a clean install here (link is external).

I've already uninstalled and reinstalled NSS, but not using the "removal tool" for the uninstall. I'll certainly give that a try.

> If you're a Windows 8 or greater computer, plz disable fast startup (link is external).

Fast startup is disabled by default in Windows 10, but I checked it anyway, and it still is.

Thanks for the suggestions!
 

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> In addition to above suggestions, please got to Settings > Antivirus > Updates Tab and ensure Apply Updates only on reboot is set to OFF (don't forget the Apply if you change it).

Confirmed, it's off. I'll be sure to check that again after the uninstall/reinstall.

> Also a long shot:  Please verify your system clock is set to the correct date/time

Yes, it's correct. It's configured to sync time automatically via NTP.

After completing all of the items you guys have suggested, I'll likely have to monitor things for a while to see if the problems I originally described are resolved. So, it may be a little while before you hear back from me, but I will definitely keep you informed.

Thanks for the suggestions, all!
 

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

FYI, a couple of side notes as to how all of this went:

- Seems the "removal tool" doesn't remove so well, although that may be just a Comcast version thing.

After running it and the forced reboot, everything seemed gone, but I still had a shortcut on my desktop named "Norton Installation Files". That pointed to "C:\Users\Public\Downloads\Norton\{COMCASTxxxxxxxxx-xxx-xxxxxxx}" (numbers removed for privacy purposes). I deleted both of those manually, then ran the tool one more time and rebooted, just to make sure.

- After I reinstalled NSS, it immediately reported "You Are Protected" on the home screen, and began running an automatic quick scan.

That scan had to have been run with out-of-date executables and virus definition files because after it completed I ran LiveUpdate, which found updated files. As originally reported, I had to run it repeatedly (3 times total) with forced reboots in between, until it finally reported everything was up-to-date.

I really don't understand why NSS doesn't install ALL available updates in a single LiveUpdate run, including prerequisites if required. That begs the question, even if I have now fixed the problem and it will indeed run automatically (unconfirmed at this point), will all updates get applied? Apparently not, considering how it behaves during manual runs. A casual computer user wouldn't notice that in a million years, and therefore may be exposed to new threats. NSS is the only software product I've ever seen that behaves this way. Even Windows itself installs updates along with any prerequisites, in one shot. 

Oh well, all seems okay for now. I'll continue to monitor how things go from here.

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

@CraigG58:

1st of all, plz bookmark & check this page (re Norton Services Status) regularly if you find there's sth wrong with your Norton product. For case studies, you may read this forum thread and/or this one later.

2ndly...

I really don't understand why NSS doesn't install ALL available updates in a single LiveUpdate run, including prerequisites if required.

 you may get something helpful (advance information) from the below links re LU:

Thx :) 

PUP Hunter PRO: Just TRYING to save the world (U) from cyber threats, A single blog post, at a time, and ONCE & FOR ALL. (A fan of Nadia_Kovacs)
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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Hi CraigG58,


The NSS download provided on the Comcast site is in fact version 22.5.2.  while we are currently on 22.8.1.14, so you can see it is numerous versions behind.   Normally when you update from one version to another, you need to reboot and once updated to the next version, running LiveUpdate will update to the next version, if still another version is available, a reboot is requested and another LiveUpdate/reboot is required.  Also, even if the Comcast Download provided version 22.18.1.14 LiveUpdate would still need to be run in order to capture the latest definition (etc) updates that were made since the posting of the basic version install.  As you have pointed out - this is not the best way to run a railroad! 

The Norton Removal Tool does in fact leave some information behind.  The product licensing information and the Local Identity Safe vault remain intact irrespective of the method you choose to uninstall your Norton security product.  That is so if you reinstall the Norton Product it can pick up the licensing information.  The licensing has to do mainly with the retail version as they use a Norton Account and NSS does not - the licensing is handled by Comcast.

Norton Installation Files shortcut on the desktop is created when you initially start the download of Norton, and is used to continue the download if anything should occur that stops it during download.  Clicking it will start the download at the point it was interrupted.  Once the product is installed you can remove it manually.

Let me get a bit detailed on your comments re: "- After I reinstalled NSS, it immediately reported "You Are Protected" on the home screen, and began running an automatic quick scan."  and "That scan had to have been run with out-of-date executables and virus definition files because after it completed I ran LiveUpdate, which found updated files."

First are you sure it was a Quick Scan running?  You can look in your Full History to verify what was running.

You stated you had to run LiveUpdate 3 times with reboots - that is what also updates the .exes and defs.  It is not unusual to run a manual LiveUpdate and receive updates and then run another manual LiveUpdate and receive additional ones.  There are updates that require a prior update as a prerequisite prior to installing it.

Also you had a failed installation attempt and although a bit detailed here is some info from my notes in regards to your suggestion of outdated defs being used:

If the first installation attempt fails, it runs a quick scan (preinstall scan) to check for threats that could prevent
the installation. The scan files are extracted to the %temp% folder. The DING (Distribution and Install Next Generation) is a framework that Symantec developed to create, deploy, and patch Norton consumer products)engine runs the standalone LiveUpdate Engine to get the latest virus definitions. If the installation failed because of a suspected threat that could not be removed through the preinstall scan, the error flow provides an option to download the Norton Power Eraser tool.

Hope that answers some of your concerns, and I hope you confirm your auto LU is working again.

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> 1st of all, plz bookmark & check this page (re Norton Services Status) regularly if you find there's sth wrong with your Norton product. For case studies, you may read this forum thread and/or this one later.

Good information on the service status page, done!

The two other threads you linked are discussing problems with Norton accounts and features that I don't use, like Identity Safe. I don't even have an account or subscription that allows me to use NSS, presumably because I get it from Comcast.

>you may get something helpful (advance information) from the below links re LU:

> Norton LiveUpdate (link is external)

The main paragraph from this Wikipedia article, not updated since 2015:

"Symantec LiveUpdate can be run in Interactive Mode or in Express Mode. In Interactive mode, users decide which updates to download and apply. Express mode will download and apply all applicable updates. LiveUpdate also runs in Express mode silently in the background. Once all updates are downloaded, Symantec LiveUpdate will begin the process of installing them. If a restart is required, LiveUpdate will notify the user. Users can restart within the LiveUpdate interface."

This information is almost entirely incorrect. I've never seen anything called "Express" and "Interactive" modes in the current version of NSS, at least not under those names and the description of how they operate. But, I'll attempt to make some sense of it anyway.

1) "Interactive" mode: I assume this means running LU manually. That doesn't allow you to pick and choose which updates you want to to apply, nor would I want that capability. Instead, the first time a LU session is run, it downloads and installs everything it "thinks" is available. But often, if it's immediately run again, yet more updates appear. As previously described, there's no way to update everything to current levels without running LU and rebooting multiple times, until it reports everything is up to date.

Something else very important that I forgot to mention earlier: After the first manual run, LU doesn't even report to the user that there are still more updates that need to be applied. In fact, it doesn't report much of anything except when it's running scans, even though "Norton Task Notification" is enabled in settings. I need to manually go into "History" to see that information.

2) "Express" mode: I assume this is referring to automatic updates, running in the background. Note that it says it "will download and apply all applicable updates". Well, I'm not so sure about that either. To see if it's updating EVERYTHING, I'll have to keep an eye out in "History" for the next time an automatic update occurs (if we've indeed fixed that issue via the earlier steps suggested), then run LU manually immediately after. If it finds additional updates at that point, then this mode is not downloading all available updates either.

This behavior makes no sense. Why would running the result of running LU manually differ from having it run automatically? The end result should be identical.

> How the LiveUpdate (process) works (Link 1 & Link 2)?
> Technical Details of how Live Update works for SEP

I'm not running Enterprise Security Manager, Control Compliance Suite, or SEP. These all appear to be Enterprise (Corporate) products, so the information on these pages doesn't apply to NSS, correct?

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> The NSS download provided on the Comcast site is in fact version 22.5.2.  while we are currently on 22.8.1.14, so you can see it is numerous versions behind. 

Not sure where that information came from, but as I stated in my first post in this thread, the "About" dialog says I am indeed running 22.8.1.14. That was the case before the uninstall/reinstall as well. LU probably brought it up to date at some point if it was down-level, in both cases.

> even if the Comcast Download provided version 22.18.1.14 LiveUpdate would still need to be run in order to capture the latest definition (etc) updates that were made since the posting of the basic version install.

I do realize this needs to be done immediately after the initial installation (hope all users do!), and as you noted I had to run LU manually three times before it reported everything was up to date. I performed the manual runs because I still wasn't sure if automatic updates were working after the clean reinstall, which was a problem I was originally asking for help with in this thread.

> Norton Installation Files shortcut on the desktop is created when you initially start the download of Norton, and is used to continue the download if anything should occur that stops it during download.

No problem there. Just in case, I did delete those manually, ran the removal tool again, and rebooted just to ensure everything was cleaned up before I reinstalled NSS.

> First are you sure it was a Quick Scan running?

That's what NSS reported to me, via a notification anyway. There are also three Quickscan entries in "History" since I reinstalled NSS yesterday.

> There are updates that require a prior update as a prerequisite prior to installing it.

I'm well familiar with what a prereq is, and that's true of any software product, but as I already pointed out:

"NSS is the only software product I've ever seen that behaves this way. Even Windows itself installs updates along with any prerequisites, in one shot."

Worse yet, if there are additional updates, LU doesn't even report it to the user so they would know they need to run LU again. If you're unaware you need to do that, you're obviously leaving yourself exposed to new security threats.

But, I guess it is what it is with NSS, for whatever reason.

You may want to pass this information on to the NSS developers, because it creates security issues. At least TELL the user they need to run LU again of there are indeed additional updates that need to be installed.

> Also you had a failed installation attempt...

I received no error messages or anything else that indicated the new installation failed.

Thanks again for all of the advice and info. Even if I don't agree with all of it, I do appreciate the effort! ;^)

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Hello Craig

The SEP information does not apply to the retail products or to the version you get from Comcast. We refer to that version as NSS or Norton Security Suite. You have to get the install product from Comcast and not from Norton.

Thanks.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit Norton Core Security Plus 22.18.0.213 Core Firmware 282 I E 11 Chrome latest version.
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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Craig,

NSS works no differently than the retail Norton products when it comes to the requirement to run LU numerous times to ensure "no updates found".    Retail users also have to do this - it is not just NSS as far as defs go. 

Now the update for version is sometimes a long dragged out fiasco (as I call it) when it comes to an ISP's offering (NSS from Comcast).  That is because NSS uses the SOS Layout (Symantec Online Services) - which has the ISP controlling the license.  The ISP also controls which version is downloaded from their site and that is why you download an older version of NSS and have to LU (numerous times) to update it to the current version. 

FWIW, I always remind the user to run LU until it responds "no updates found", especially when posting on the Comcast Security Forums.

I am hoping you have checked your Live Update History (since you did check your Quick Scan History) and see that Auto LU is once again running.  Please note that if LU does not download any updates, there will not be an entry in LU History.

I almost forgot, "The NSS download provided on the Comcast site is in fact version 22.5.2.  while we are currently on 22.8.1.14, so you can see it is numerous versions behind. 

Not sure where that information came from "

The info came from my observing NSS after it's initial download from the Comcast site - prior to running any LU's and also from my dealing with NSS situations ever since Comcast switched to Norton from McAfee.

Are you active on the Comcast Forums, specifically the Anti-Virus Software and Internet Security Board?   If so you may recognize me as USAF_E-8_RET.

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> The SEP information does not apply to the retail products or to the version you get from Comcast. We refer to that version as NSS or Norton Security Suite. You have to get the install product from Comcast and not from Norton.

Yes, I am getting NSS from Comcast, as I stated in my original post.

It's my understanding that Enterprise Security Manager, Control Compliance Suite, and SEP are all Enterprise products. That left me wondering why I was pointed to information about how LU works for them, when they have nothing to do with NSS. No need to respond... I think someone was just confused, and we all make mistakes.

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

> The ISP also controls which version is downloaded from their site and that is why you download an older version of NSS and have to LU (numerous times) to update it to the current version. 

If there are prereqs, LU *always* has to be run numerous times to get all available updates, not just immediately after the initial installation. That's one of the things we've been discussing throughout this entire thread.

> FWIW, I always remind the user to run LU until it responds "no updates found", especially when posting on the Comcast Security Forums.

All due respect, that's nice of you, but I doubt the layman user does much reading here. Unless they know they have to do this to get all available updates, they're left with security exposures until the next time an LU is run. That's why I stated earlier, at the very least NSS should notify the user of the need to run it again, but instead it reports everything is up to date, when it's not.

> I am hoping you have checked your Live Update History (since you did check your Quick Scan History) and see that Auto LU is once again running.  Please note that if LU does not download any updates, there will not be an entry in LU History.

I checked "History", and an automatic LU happened a few hours ago, so at least I know it's now working. But, I just ran LU manually, and it still found 2 additional updates. This suggests that an automatic LU is not installing all available updates either (i.e. it's behaving the same way as a manual LU does).

> Are you active on the Comcast Forums, specifically the Anti-Virus Software and Internet Security Board?

I do have access to the Comcast Forums, but I don't visit them unless I have a problem. Most of the time I can get help from users and/or reps there, so I use those forums first, because waiting on-hold on their phone help line for sometimes hours on end isn't much fun. In my experience, their phone operators usually have no idea of what they're talking about anyway. ;^(

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

I forgot to mention when I said...

"I checked "History", and an automatic LU happened a few hours ago, so at least I know it's now working. But, I just ran LU manually, and it still found 2 additional updates. This suggests that an automatic LU is not installing all available updates either (i.e. it's behaving the same way as a manual LU does)."

Well, I had to run LU twice manually before everything was updated after the automatic update too.
 

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Hello Craig

Automatic Live Update is supposed to check for Updates approximately every hour. It does not check for updates all the time. So if an update appears in the download server, it might sit there for close to an hour depending on what time it arrived there. You can run Live Update at any time. If you run it 5 minutes after the last Automatic Live Update and you find a couple of downloads, that does not mean that the Automatic Live Update missed those other Updates. They may not have been there 5 minutes earlier. Automatic Live Update does not always find Updates when it does check in an hours time.

Some times I have 3 hours or more between Live Updates. When I do run a manual Live Update, I don't always find any updates even after 2 hours. The ALU does not run exactly every hour.

Just tried to give you some insight on how it works..

Thanks.

Success always occurs in private and failure in full view. Windows 10 Pro 64 bit Norton Core Security Plus 22.18.0.213 Core Firmware 282 I E 11 Chrome latest version.
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Re: LiveUpdate issues

Sincerely, thanks for the info. That's good to know, but it really has nothing to do with the NSS behavior I've been repeatedly pointing out in this thread.

The design of how LU works is what's in question, whether manual or automatic (both seem to behave the same way).

Let me try and summarize this simply:

- If there's only one set of updates, LU finds and applies them, and at that point everything is up to date.

- If there are prereqs, LU must be run multiple times to bring everything up to date. 

In the latter case, after the first LU run, NSS reports everything is up to date, when it's obviously not.

When running a manual LU, NSS should at a minimum be notifying the user of the need to run it again if there are additional updates available, in order to bring NSS totally up to date. If a user doesn't don't know to do this (and how could they, since as I was just saying there's no notification), then they have security exposures due to more updated files waiting to be applied. That won't occur until LU is run again. And often, again and again and again, until LU reports there are no additional updates available. Make sense?

So, I guess it's working as designed, but it's a bad design due the reasons I've stated above. Anyway, as I was saying earlier in the thread, I guess it is what it is.

I think we're all just going around in circles at this point, so I'm going to consider this thread closed. I do appreciate all of the information that's been provided to me along the way, thank you very much.

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Re: LiveUpdate issues

CraigG58,let me try to post two images and explain the difference between them:

The first one shows that the concerned run of LU finished, while the second one shows you that LU Finished and there were no additional updates found.

 Now all that I show above is how it is and how it works - but how many users intuitively know the difference?  Probably very few and that is why, as I mentioned before I (as well as most other Guru's) mention to run LU until it responds - No updates found. 

I agree there is no warning for the unsuspecting user that there may be more updates available with the LU Finished response, and I agree that may be misleading, but it appears that is the way it is and has been for years.

If you desire it changed, you can make a suggestion on the Product Suggestions Board and hopefully other user will  support your suggestion and Norton will consider it.

IMHO there is far more wrong with the upgrading and updating of the SOS version of Norton for Comcast than this LU situation.  One example is why does  Comcast provide an older version of Norton for both PC's and MAC's as the download on their site?  I have asked on the Comcast forum for probably the last two years for a contact from Comcast to ask questions about the downloaded version - but have still not gotten a response and we have gone through 3 Comcast Forum Admins who could not give me an answer.

This thread is closed from further comment. Please visit the forum to start a new thread.