I am seeing a consistent bug / feature with Ghost 15 and Windows 7 (both 32 bit and 64 bit), in which the “Copy Drive” (clone drive) function seems to automatically change the boot drive of the machine. Specifically, if you have two hardware identical hard drives in a Windows 7 (both 32 bit and 64 bit) machine; and, you use Ghost 15 to do a “Copy Drive” from the current boot drive to another hardware identical drive, within the same machine (between those two identical hard drives), then the boot drive is automatically changed by Ghost 15 to the newly cloned drive. This is not consistent with the way that previous versions of Ghost worked, such that I believe it to be a somewhat dangerous bug. Any thoughts?
Thank you for your reply. What I am trying to say is that the clone function in Ghost 15 does not work in the same manner as previous versions of Ghost. It is true that the main use of the clone function would be to create images for other machines. However, where we disagree, is that I firmly believe a less used, but still legitimate use of the clone function, is to create images on the same machine. This is the functionality that I believe has a bug in it, per my previous posting (as it automatically changes the boot drive). So, this is likely related to the bug that you have reported (in that it sounds like boot records are getting messed up by the Ghost 15 clone function); however, it is not an identical problem, in that I can boot off the cloned drive, but not the original drive. Any thoughts?
I am seeing a consistent bug / feature with Ghost 15 and Windows 7 (both 32 bit and 64 bit), in which the “Copy Drive” (clone drive) function seems to automatically change the boot drive of the machine. Specifically, if you have two hardware identical hard drives in a Windows 7 (both 32 bit and 64 bit) machine; and, you use Ghost 15 to do a “Copy Drive” from the current boot drive to another hardware identical drive, within the same machine (between those two identical hard drives), then the boot drive is automatically changed by Ghost 15 to the newly cloned drive. This is not consistent with the way that previous versions of Ghost worked, such that I believe it to be a somewhat dangerous bug. Any thoughts?
mike,
I think I understand what you are saying. Could you look in Disk Management and see which Win7 partition is the System, Active partition. Just a guess but is Win7 on HD0 the System, Active partition and is Win7 on HD1 the Boot partition?
Edit... One question. When you use Copy Drive, do you copy to a partition with a drive letter on the second HD?
Message Edited by Brian_K on 01-07-2010 11:25 AM
Disk Management: Before the clone, HD-0 was the boot disk. After the clone, HD-1 is the boot disk. Also, after the clone, HD-0 is no longer bootable (which is probably related to your problem), but HD-0 is still completely readable. I am guessing that the boot sector on HD-0 was somehow corrupted by the Ghost 15 clone function, while it was able to create a perfectly good boot sector on HD-1. My BIOS is setup with a boot order of HD-0, then HD-1, such that it defaults to HD-1, when HD-0 is not bootable. Also, I tested HD-0 by unplugging HD-1, in order to confirm that the clone function corrupted the boot sector on HD-0. I hope that answers your question.
Edit: I use Copy / Clone Drive to copy drive to drive, NOT partition to partition.
Message Edited by mikekauf on 01-06-2010 07:30 PM
mikekauf wrote:Edit: I use Copy / Clone Drive to copy drive to drive, NOT partition to partition.
mike,
Unless I'm mistaken, Ghost 15 can't do drive to drive clones. It does partition clones. ( Ghost calls partitions, drives. Which is confusing). But it can't clone a whole HD such as Ghost 2003 could. Can you check? So does this mean your second HD was partitioned prior to using Ghost 15 Copy Drive?
Could you look in Disk Management and help out with my question? I assume both HDs are still in the computer.
Since Ghost 15 (and previous versions) give you the option of expanding through unallocated space, it certainly gives the impression that it can do physical drive to physical drive. However, in my case it would probably be more accurate to say that it is single partition to single partition, as both physical drives are identical hardware, and each has only one partition on it, of equal size, and yes the clone drive already had a partition on it, prior to the clone (i.e. the second HD was partitioned prior to using Ghost 15 Copy Drive).
mike,
Could you try booting your second HD on its own in the HD0 position? If you cloned an OS (WinXP, 2000, Vista or Win7) to a partition with a drive letter, that HD will not boot.
Yes, the second HD (i.e. the cloned drive) boots on its own. However, we are getting a bit off topic here. If you re-read my original posting, you will see that the issue is that the original boot HD no longer boots. The issue was never the cloned HD. it was the original HD. So, in cloning a second HD, Ghost 15 successfully created a second boot disk, while likely corrupting the boot sector of the original boot disk (as the original boot disk no longer boots).
mike,
One of the commonest topics here is the target HD not booting after Copy Drive and this is due to cloning into a partition with a drive letter. Are you confirming that your target HD boots when it is the only HD in the computer? Not just when both HDs are in the computer. If it does you will be the first to achieve this outcome.
Yes, we are getting off topic. Ghost 15 Copy Drive with Win7 is flawed. In my case (and others), neither HD boots on its own after the procedure.
Yes, my target drive is bootable on its own. This is why I said that our problems are not the same, but likely related. My problem is that the source drive is no longer bootable, while the target drive is bootable. While your problem is that your target drive is not bootable. However, as I understand it, you had multiple partitions, where I only have single partition drives. In theory, it makes no sense that my source drive should be impacted, because it should be read only during the clone process; however, it appears that the Ghost 15 clone function is messing with the boot sector of my source drive, while it seems to be creating a perfectly fine boot sector on my target drive. I do not get it. I suspect that Ghost 15 might be creating a conflict between the two boot sectors or a conflict between the drive signatures, and that conflict might be a potential cause of the source drive losing something in its boot sector, but this is only a theory on my part. Also, I suspect that this occurs during the reboot of my machine, directly after the clone process. So, this is my guess as to why you and I are having opposite HD issues. Ghost might be messing up the drive signatures, and it might be messing up the boot sectors. All I can say is that my target drive boots fine, and my source drive does not boot. Again, the source drive (and especially the boot sector on the source drive) should be read only, during the clone process. So, I am just making educated guesses. The truth is that I bought a piece of software that does not work as described, nor does it work as its previous versions did. However, I am out of ideas; and, my ideas might be lame as it is time to go to sleep in my time zone.
mike,
My source HD doesn't boot either. And my target HD doesn't boot. I am worse off that you. Neither of my HDs boot. Ghost needs to be fixed.
Could I ask for the third time. In Disk Management, which is the System and which is the Boot partition when you are booting the second HD? You don't seem to want to answer this question.
Unfortunately you have broken both rules of cloning. These rules apply to Win7 too. Strange things can happen when you break these rules.
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm
You have let old-Win7 see the new partition before cloning.
You have let new-Win7 see the old-Win7 partition the first time it boots.
Okay, as warned, I fell asleep. Sorry, I did not answer all of your questions. There was no attempt to avoid any question.
Here is the original 64 bit machine, which was the subject of the original conversation:
Environment: Win7 Pro (64 bit), 8gb RAM, AMD Quad Core, 3.0 GHz, HD0-C: is a Hitachi SATA 250gb drive, HD1-D: is a Hitachi SATA 250gb drive (both are HDT722525DLA380)
After reboot, After Clone, Explorer shows the boot drive is HD1-D:
After reboot, After Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Pagefile, Active, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Boot, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
Power down, various cable disconnects and reconnects:
• HD0-C: is NOT bootable alone
• HD1-D: IS bootable alone
Also, as you will see (below), I am using the Ghost wizard with physically identical hard drives, such that it is NOT possible for me to be violating any of the Ghost rules for cloning, unless their own wizard is violating the cloning rules. Also, let’s remember that I am using the clone function for a less than mainstream use, but still legitimate use (i.e. I am not creating a clone for another machine (which is the mainstream use), instead I am creating a clone that remains in the same machine as a back up image (still legitimate use), which has worked in every previous version of Ghost). Anyhow, I am now restoring the 64 bit machine from a file back up that I did a few days ago, such that it is no longer available for questions. However, this morning, I got up, and reproduced the entire scenario, on a different (32 bit) machine (that I can leave in this state for a couple of days, to answer any further questions). Also, this gave me the opportunity to document everything in excess detail for you, as follows:
Environment: Win7 Pro (32 bit), 2gb RAM, Intel Dual Core, 3.4 GHz, HD0-C: is a Maxtor IDE 160gb drive, HD1-D: is a Maxtor IDE 160gb drive (both are 6Y160P0)
Reboot machine
Before Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Boot, Pagefile, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Active, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
Open Ghost 15, Tools, Copy My Hard Drive
Welcome to the Copy Drive Wizard, Next
Copy Drive Wizard, Source Drive, Click / Highlight HD0-C: / Disk1, Next (note that this is a drive selection, and not partition selection, as Ghost is not even offering partition selections, probably because there is only one partition on each drive)
Copy Drive Wizard, Destination, Click / Highlight HD1-D: / Disk2, Next (again, note that this is a drive selection, and not partition selection, as Ghost is not even offering partition selections, probably because there is only one partition on each drive)
Copy Drive Wizard, Advanced Options
• CHECKED the following boxes: Check source for file system errors, Check destination for file system errors, Set drive active (for booting OS), Copy MBR
• Note I did NOT check boxes for the following: Resize drive to fill unallocated space (which was grayed out, because the physical drives are identical), Disable SmartSector copying, Ignore bad sectors during copy
Next
Copy Drive Wizard, Completing the Copy Wizard, reviewed the summary, Finish
Copy Drive Wizard, WARNING: All data on the destination will be overwritten. Are you sure you want to proceed?, Yes
Progress and Performance, Copying Drive (progress frame is up)
Copy Drive, Destination is in use (by the sidebar photos), force dismount (actually, you have to click on Ignore, in order to force the dismount)
Back to the Progress and Performance, Copying Drive (progress frame is up)
Took a shower, fed the animals, did some work, watched some TV, etc. After waiting 1:43:52, Copy Drive (Clone) succeeded on the 32 bit machine, exit out of the various Ghost frames
BEFORE reboot, After Clone, Explorer shows the boot drive is HD0-C:
Before reboot, After Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Boot, Pagefile, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Active, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
So far, it looks just fine, now Reboot machine
AFTER reboot, After Clone, Explorer now shows the boot drive is HD1-D:
After reboot, After Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Pagefile, Active, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Boot, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
Note: This is why I suspect that the Ghost 15 clone function is creating a conflict either:
• between the two boot sectors,
• or between the two disk signatures,
• or both,
that is somehow getting resolved by the next boot in a manner that corrupts the original boot sector of the source HD, but leaves the clones boot sector of the destination HD bootable. This is just a guess, which could easily be wrong.
Power down, various cable disconnects and reconnects (and IDE master / slave changes):
• HD0-C: is NOT bootable alone
• HD1-D: IS bootable alone
So, clearly I have shown that this is reproducible; and, I have given you the recipe to do it. I hope this is enough information to meet your needs. However, I will keep the second (32 bit) machine in this state for a couple of days, just in case you have further questions.
mike,
That is an incredible effort and very informative post. Thanks. I'm just in the process of reproducing your steps and I'll report back.
mike,
I got this far...
AFTER reboot, After Clone, Explorer now shows the boot drive is HD1-D:
After reboot, After Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Pagefile, Active, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Boot, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
Everything was as you described. It looks as if Win7 on the second HD is the booting OS but using boot files from the first HD. I clicked the Start button to run a program and a few seconds later the computer spontaneously rebooted and I'm now looking at "Invalid Boot Diskette, Insert BOOT diskette in A:" On this computer it usually means that the HD can't be found.
Edit..... I then unplugged the first HD and setup the second HD as a Master. As you indicated the HD does boot. But after a prolonged "Preparing your Desktop" message on top of a blue screen I was asked to restart. This time I got to the Welcome screen, entered my password and waited. Once again I saw "Preparing your Desktop" and eventually a dull grey blue screen which persisted. Windows never loaded. This is typical of breaking the cloning rules and you and I broke both of them.
I then powered off, disconnected the second HD and setup the first HD as a Master. On startup, a Windows Boot Manager error screen was seen, Status 0xc000000e. Win7 wouldn't boot and it was the same error I've seen in the past.
My findings were as I expected. When you booted the second HD after the clone (with no cables connected to the first HD), did it load completely into Windows? Could you run programs?
Message Edited by Brian_K on 01-08-2010 07:48 AM
mikekauf wrote:
BEFORE reboot, After Clone, Explorer shows the boot drive is HD0-C:
Before reboot, After Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Boot, Pagefile, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Active, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
So far, it looks just fine, now Reboot machine
AFTER reboot, After Clone, Explorer now shows the boot drive is HD1-D:
After reboot, After Clone, Open Disk Management
• HD0-C:, Healthy (System, Pagefile, Active, Primary Partition)
• HD1-D:, Healthy (Boot, Active, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
Close Disk Management
Note: This is why I suspect that the Ghost 15 clone function is creating a conflict either:
• between the two boot sectors,
• or between the two disk signatures,
• or both,
that is somehow getting resolved by the next boot in a manner that corrupts the original boot sector of the source HD, but leaves the clones boot sector of the destination HD bootable. This is just a guess, which could easily be wrong.
Looks to me that it was windows that made the change, not Ghost.
As you note, before the reboot the source drive is the boot drive but after a reboot windows changes the destination drive to the boot drive.
I'm assuming it's windows doing it, you could verify it by not rebooting. After doing the drive copy if you were to directly shut down and remove the second drive I predict that the original drive will boot with no problems.
I also would predict that the destination drive put in by it'self would not boot. (more on that later).
I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with Ghost, I feel there really is a problem with copying a drive. Ghost is definatly not doing a perfect copy of the drive or both drives would be perfect clones and would be bootable on thier own after the copy process.
Back in the "old days" image programs like Drive Image (now part of Ghost) would "hide" one of the partitions after the copy so that if the system were rebooted after the copy, Windows would not mess up the active partitions.
Before XP drive letters used to follow the DOS lettering standards and you could put another "C" drive in as a secondary drive and the system would automatically see it as "D" at next boot.
Now that Windows since XP uses the registry to define drive letters it adds to the problem, when your rebooting with both drives in the system it looks like Windows is making a choice and then making a change to one of the drives.
I have seen numerous posts about problems that seem related to this or people having to fix the boot after a restore and it just doesn't seem right to me. People purchasing a product like Ghost shouldn't have to mess around trying to fix the boot with a windows 98 boot disk or a third party tool like Bootit NG. They should be able to simply use the product and have it work, each and every time so people can have confidence and a "piece of mind" trusting Ghost and Symantec to backup all thier valuable data.
Since Ghost no longer really is a "bit by bit" perfect image of the hard drive like it was in DOS, I'm sure users would accept another small change if it was necessary for everything to work better like zeroing out the part of the MBR that makes Windows reset the drive letters.
Sorry I couldn't help you Mike but I wish you the very best of luck,
Dave
Dave,
I agree, Mike did one too many reboots.
Ghost 15 and Win7 don't work well together with Copy Drive. I've done about 20 clones with this combination and the results are always the same. Both HDs don't boot. This has been the experience of all in this forum although one member reported that his old HD booted.
So Ghost is making changes to the BCD on the old HD and this shouldn't happen. This can be easily fixed by a Win7 DVD Startup Repair.
Ghost is not copying the Disk Signature from the old to the new HD. This in itself is enough to prevent the new HD from booting. Again, this can be easily fixed by a Win7 DVD Startup Repair.
I've used other cloning apps with Win7 and they work without any issues. Ghost 15 needs to be fixed. It certainly doesn't look good for the product when both HDs fail to boot after a clone process.
mike,
I tried some combinations that aren't recommended. The second HD was cabled as Master and the first HD as Slave. Windows booted to the desktop. The System, Boot, Active partition was HD0 (the new HD) but it was D: drive. The old HD (HD1 here) was C: drive.
Programs would run but they were running from the other HD. The C: drive. So it's obvious this isn't a good setup. Remember, the running Windows on the current HD0 is the Windows that won't even load when it is the only HD in the computer.
Well, at least we have a detailed recipe to reproduce the problem; and, it seems like we agree with my guess that the Ghost 15 copy / clone function is creating a situation that Win7 thinks it needs to fix (which then causes a boot sector problem for the source HD, while leaving the boot sector of the destination HD just fine). As a side note, to answer your question about where applications where running from, after the clone and after the reboot, I did notice that the bitdefender application was running from HD1-D:, and not from HD0-C:. Anyhow, my question is how does this bug get reported to Symantec (or do they use this forum for bug reports)? I am happy to report the bug, but I cannot find an official bug reporting mechanism. Any thoughts?
mike,
Symantec are aware of the issue.
Can you do me a favour? Can you connect your new HD as a Master (old HD not connected at all) and try to boot. It will appear that everything is normal, you will even be able to login but I suspect that Win7 will never get to the desktop. It will freeze on the dull grey blue screen that is typical af a drive letter issue.