OHarris wrote:
I have owned a Digital Storm Computer with i7 975,Windows 7 64bit, 12 Gigs of RAM, NIVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 for 2 years. During that entire time, I have had Norton Internet Security (currently 2012) and Norton Ghost 15.
About 3 months ago, my computer started randomly freezing/slowing down. By slowing down, I mean that it took 2 minutes to trash an icon on the desktop. I would log off, which took several minutes, and the computer would work fine for a few minutes/several hours and freeze again. I had not installed new software, so I was afraid I had a virus, and I completely reinstalled all software. The problem was still there.
I contacted Digital Storm and checked my hard drive and memory.
A few days ago, I spent a couple of days rebuilding my computer from the manufacturer disk. This time I installed each program and tested the computer. That is a difficult task because I had to install software and then updates, while having to go through all the problems software companies put their customers through to prevent privacy.
The computer worked fine. So, I installed Ghost, made a copy of my hard drive, and cut the computer off. The next day, I started my computer. It froze immediately. I used Revo Uninstaller and removed Norton Ghost and Norton Live Update.
The computer worked perfectly and has worked fine ever since.
I assume the problem is Norton Live Update.
I do not wish to go through this again, so now I am afraid to install Ghost 15, Norton Internet Security 2012, or Norton Online Backup.
I assume this does not happen to everyone, so there must be something on my computer that is conflicting with these programs. I have Microsoft office, Access, Photoshop, Lightwave 3d, Illustrator, Quicken, Internet Explorer, Blender 3d, Messiah Studio, OmniPage 17, Mathematica Home Edition, and Visual Basic. The utilities that own include RoboForm, Revo Uninstaller, GoodSync, Quicktime, Garmin Maps/Garmin Connect, and Stuffit 2009.
I would appreciate any help. Otherwise, I will have to find a new Internet Security Suite, Backup Software, and Online Backup Service.
Hi, OHarris. Some ideas:
1A. You ran for a long time with Ghost and NIS installed on your machine without trouble. Then, about three months ago - things started to go sideways. My suspicion is that something changed at that time - which may have created a software compatibility issue.
Do you have any recollection as to what software you installed just before the slowdown problem started to show up? I think that would be the first software-related item to investigate.
2A. Regardless, you have done a full-pull reinstall-from-scratch. When you did so, all worked well until you installed Ghost 15. At that point, you ran into trouble. This is a known issue.
I have created a thread in the forum where issues with Ghost 15 are discussed - with suggestions on how to deal with that problem. The thread can be found as follows:
http://community.norton.com/t5/Other-Norton-Products/Problems-with-Ghost-15-Installation/m-p/612728
Now, to return to your original issue:
1B. There are a couple of hardware items that can cause the slowdown you describe. The most common one is a problem with the CPU heatsink - where the CPU overheats because the heatsink is no longer carrying away the heat from the CPU properly.
2B. With Intel CPUs - when the above problem occurs, the CPU will slow down in order to prevent itself from generating so much heat that it burns itself out. This process is called "thermal throttling". It can be totally baffling and utterly infuriating to have this problem occur to you - if you don't know the signs of what to check for when "inexplicable" slowdowns come and go on your machine.
3B. With the newer Intel CPUs - they have extensive Power Management improvements which allow the CPU to run in very low power mode when the machine is idle. Thus, a marginal CPU Heatsink will be no problem while the CPU is Idle. However, the moment some demand is put on the machine - the heat builds quickly to the point where the CPU will go into thermal-throttling mode in order to protect itself. It will stay in that mode until whatever process is loading the CPU is complete. Once the CPU goes back to idling - the Heatsink has enough capacity to cool the CPU down to reasonable temperatures again - until such time as the next major load comes along.
4B. The cycle repeats unpredictably - because it is tied to when a major CPU load is imposed - which is not tied to any particular or recognizable schedule. Background tasks - such as an Idle Scan or a Ghost Backup - are precisely the kind of things that can make the problem I describe show up.
5B. The other thing to note is that it is common for a CPU Heatsink to work properly for years - while the Heatsink compound that allows heat to transfer efficiently from the CPU to the Heatsink slowly degrades. The CPU temperature under load gradually rises - which does not become a problem until the temperature rises to the point where thermal-throttling occurs. From that point on - things get progressively worse as the Heatsink compound continues to degrade. The time between an increase in CPU load and the time the CPU starts to throttle in order to protect itself gets shorter and shorter. 2 years is about right for this problem to show up with top-of-the-line CPUs and marginal CPU Heatsinks.
Does the problem I am describing above match the symptoms you have noticed? If so, this is the very first thing that needs to be fixed - before you even begin to look at software issues.
How to check if you are running into this problem:
1C. You need to remove the CPU heatsink, clean off the degraded Heatsink compound, reapply fresh Heatsink compound using the manufacturer's recommended application procedure and then reinstall the Heatsink.
2C. If the intermittent and unpredictable slowdowns go away - you've found the source of the problem.
Things to know about CPU Heatsinks:
1D. Since you are running a high end machine - getting an Aftermarket CPU Cooler with higher performance is a pretty good idea. Did Digital Storm install one - or did they use the stock Intel Heatsink supplied with the CPU?
2D. The stock Intel CPU Heatsink for Intel's high-end CPUs is pretty marginal - and the heatsink compound cooks away much more quickly when the heatsink spends a lot more time running hot.
3D. Because of the above - it is necessary to clean off the "cooked out" heatsink compound and reapply fresh heatsink compound more frequently when running a marginal CPU Heatsink.
4D. Using an aftermarket CPU Heatsink with greater cooling efficiency is more than just a tool for overclocking. It is also a way to massively increase stability and reliability in your machine as well. Also, the better quality heatsink compounds available for aftermarket CPU Heatsinks are much more resistant to "cooking out" than the cheap and marginal compound used on stock heatsinks.
5D. From the above, it can be seen that everything having to do with the CPU lasts longer, runs cooler and stays running cooler - when a good quality aftermarket CPU Heatsink using high-quality Heatsink compound is used.
The other thing that happens with all Computers over time - is they gradually fill up with dust and lint. This comes from the air dragged into the Computer to cool the CPU, the Power Supply, your Video Card, and so on. Eventually, enough dust and lint gets dragged into the machine so that garbage starts to block the airflow through the CPU Heatsink, the Power Supply Heatsinks and the Video Card's GPU Heatsink. Again, temperatures rise and CPU thermal throttling starts to occur - but for a different reason. The more insidious problem is the degradation in cooling efficiency inside the Power Supply and on the Video Card - which translates directly into increased risk of failure in those devices.
The way you fix this is:
1E. For High Performance machines - once a year (2 years at most) - it is necessary to disassemble the machine and vacuum the dust out of the machine to clear out the cooling passages that have gradually become blocked with dust and lint. This requirement is utterly normal system maintenance - no different than getting an oil change for your car.
Note: The dust problem and the CPU Heatsink Compound problem create a vicious circle that accelerates Heatsink compound breakdown. On my machines here - I clean them at minimum once every 6 months. Even so, when I go into one that's been closed for that entire length of time - I'm utterly amazed at how much "stuff" has accumulated - as well as how much blockage there is on my CPU and GPU Heatsink fins.
2E. Intel's stock CPU Heatsink design leaves an area right under the Heatsink that is very difficult to clean properly without removing the Heatsink to do so. I consider it a good idea to clean that area - because I have seen motherboards go bad because the dust has built up in that area to such a level that it "cooks" the motherboard components around the CPU. I don't think it's necessary to clean this area each time I clean the dust out of the fans and Heatsink fins - but I think it wise to do so every second time I go in to do housekeeping.
Cleaning this stuff out is a really good idea - if you want that expensive motherboard to last.
3E. Another side-benefit of removing the Heatsink to clean the area around the CPU - you get to clean off the old CPU heatsink compound and reapply new stuff. Thus, your CPU Heatsink compound never really gets a chance to degrade to the level where thermal-throttling will occur. That this lets you get every ounce of CPU "grunt" out of that expensive processor - is icing on the cake.
Now, on to the final step - which involves ensuring you correctly install, configure and update the Version of NIS you select:
1F. The version of NIS found on your installation CD is much older than the version found on the Symantec Download websites. The installer for the downloaded version of NIS has a bunch of fixes for installation "gotchas" - that are missing from the older CD-based version.
2F. For the above reason, I recommend downloading the latest version of the appropriate NIS installer - and using that to perform your NIS install - rather than the CD. Use the appropriate hotlink below to download the appropriate installer for the version of NIS you wish to use. Save the file to your Hard Disk. Double-click the file to run it. The file will unpack into an installation folder and automatically start the installation process. Answer the questions in the Install Wizard, no differently than if you were installing from a CD.
Note: Keeping a copy of older versions of the downloadable installer is fine - because they are no longer evolving. However, when you need to install the current version of NIS for any reason - always download new so you are sure you are getting the benefits of the "smarts" in the latest installer.
NIS 2010: www.norton.com/nis10
NIS 2011: www.norton.com/nis11
NIS 2012: www.norton.com/nis12
3F. Your NIS Product Key is valid for the entire current-generation of NIS products, which are NIS 2010, NIS 2011 and NIS 2012. When you renew your Subscription for a NIS product - all that happens is the expiry date in the Norton Product Activation Database for your particular Product Key is extended into the future. Thusly, you have complete freedom to install and use NIS 2010, NIS 2011 or NIS 2012 - at your discretion. It is your decision which product you want to run.
4F. Some users are still finding that NIS 2012 is "cranky" on their machines. They have gone back to NIS 2011 - using their existing Product Key - and are working happily with that product while waiting for the issue they had trouble with in NIS 2012 to be addressed by Symantec. You can exercise the same option if desired.
5F. Because you have Norton Ghost - it is even easier for you to use whichever version of NIS that you wish. All you need to do is generate a Ghost image of your machine at the point just before you want to install NIS - and then install whichever version you wish and run with that on test. If that version works properly for you - all well and good.
6F. If you run into a problem - you just restore your Ghost image from just before you did your test-install - and install the next version you want to test. Figuring out which version to use could not be easier.
7F. In some circumstances, you may end up running a particular version of NIS for weeks or months before you run into a bug which prods you in the direction of trying a different version. If so, Symantec have you covered there as well. You can uninstall the version you are currently running and try a different version.
Note: Moving backwards in NIS version generates some potential compatibility "gotchas". Always come to the forums and ask questions about the recommended procedure for uninstalling a product before reverting to an older version.
Also, if you have used an older version and upgraded - you should export and conserve your Identity Safe data for the old version before upgrading - so you are not caught unawares at a later date if you wish to revert.
Coming to the forums and asking questions of what you should conserve and what you should throw away when upgrading and downgrading between NIS versions is a good idea - because the answer can be moving target. Always come here, ask questions and get the current recommended procedure before moving between versions of NIS. This will save you lots of grief and prevent you from having to "reinvent the wheel" because you moved forward and burned your bridges not knowing that you might want to return to where you were.
8F. Sometimes, an uninstall of NIS may not work entirely correctly - for what are commonly unknown reasons. In those circumstances, Symantec have a Software Utility called the Norton Removal Tool (NRT) which can "dynamite the logjam" and remove the corrupted "mortal remains" of an uninstall that did not remove all the things it should have - and is thus causing problems with the installation or upgrade of a different version of NIS.
The NRT is regularly updated. If you come here with a problem and someone suggests the use of the NRT - you always download a fresh copy. You do not keep old copies of the NRT around - because an old version may not do all the housekeeping properly for Symantec's newer software releases.
Another thing to note about the NRT - it is a "shotgun" process. It removes all your Symantec products in one go. Thus, you will need to reinstall all those products if the NRT becomes the only "magic bullet" that is going to solve your problem. Because of this - making sure you have a Ghost image of the machine before you make any changes to your Symantec Product Set is a really good idea.
Hope this helps.
Sorry to hear of your problem and I can understand your frustration !
