I've been web-researching backup options in the past few days and want to settle on a solution of either Paragon freeware or Ghost (I know the latter meets the needs, but I wonder if the former can do with with reasonable ease for a newbie). Here is the scenario:
My current Toshiba Satellite A660 (model PSAW3C-047017) runs Windows 7 Professional 64-bit. The HDD is Toshiba MK6465GSX HDD (http://storage.toshiba.eu/cms/en/hdd/multimedia/product_detail.jsp?productid=341). I bought a smaller (500GB) Seagate Momentus XT, which apparently has Advanced Format. I am assuming that the Toshiba HDD has 512 bytes/sector because nothing comes up in a web search for Advanced Format for that HDD.
I would like to use the Momentus XT to create a bootable clone of my Toshiba HDD. The Momentus XT will be in a enclosure that interfaces to the laptop via eSATA. After cloning to the Momentus XT, I would like to replace my Toshiba HDD in the laptop with the Momentus XT because of its higher performance. The Toshiba HDD will then become my auxiliary HDD (in the external enclosure) for weekly cloning. If anything ever happens to the Momentus XT in the laptop, I can then take the Toshiba HDD out of the enclosure and drop it into the laptop. However, this manner of usage means that I have to be able to initially clone from Toshiba HDD to Momentus XL, then clone in the opposite direction thereafter.
I've read plenty about alignment issues that need to be tended to, but not having imaged, cloned, or formatted a hard disk before (aside from blindly obeying tech support), I'm foggy on the understanding. Seagate has announced their SmartAlign technology, but there is no corroboration on its efficacy, and no info as to which HDD models have it. Since Windows 7 is described as AF-aware, I assume that many of the issues targeted by SmartAlign are nonissues for me.
My concern is whether there are any other pitfalls due to the nonmatching HDD sizes and sectors sizes that could create problems for the cloning process, both from the Toshiba HDD to the Momentus XT and vice-versa. Consequences (and solutions) that I'm trawling for are the inability to create a bootable clone, the completeness and accessibility of the clone contents, and alignment issues that impact performance (apart from those avoided by virtue of using Windows 7).
From a friend, I know that Ghost will properly handle the HDD and sector size differences gracefully, avoiding the above consequences. Still waiting to hear back on whether it was Symantec or Norton. I was wondering if Paragon freeware will handle this scenario as well. Paragon is free, but aside from functional suitability, I would also consider the ease-of-use in order to make a decision on the two.
Thanks for any feedback on the ability of Paragon freeware to handle this scenario, the comparative ease-of-use of Paragon & Ghost for this scenario, and any other considerations that you think are relevant in choosing between them for my scenario.
By the way, is there a standard way to test disk performance? It'd be nice to know whether I avoided all the pitfalls.
I'm going to boot from the Momentus XT while it is still in the external closure, connected to the laptop by eSATA. If it works, it means I am free to so all the diagnostics/formatting on the resident HDD that I have to (that's what sparked my interest in cloning -- Tech Support said that the best diagnostics that can be done for boot failures was to format the HDD). I don't want to stick the Momentus XT into the laptop right away because if the resident HDD is bad, it can be replaced under warranty (which I don't want to void by replacing the HDD).
TonNortNuby,
I've no information on Paragon software.
One thing I did notice is you are new to backup software and you are keen to clone (copy) your HD. This is a reasonable approach if you are upgrading to a new HD but it's not recommended as a backup technique. If you search the forum I doubt you will find any of the regulars who recommend cloning as a backup technique. We suggest you use image/restore. I use image/restore when upgrading to a new HD and only use Copy Drive (cloning) in test situations. With image/restore you can keep multiple generations of backups. A clone leaves you with only one backup, unless you want to buy ten spare HDs.
Let's see if I can help. What size is your current HD? Is it 640 GB? What partitions (and sizes) are on the current HD? How much free space is present in each partition?
Can you post a screenshot of Disk Management as that will be a big help. It will show hidden partitions (if any).
If I create a recoverable image rather than a bootable clone, I need a working HDD to recover to in the event that the operation HDD dies. I mean if it becomes physically not good for use rather than just having its content corrupted. I don't want to keep a spare HDD lying around just for that purpose, and neither do I want to spend time sourcing down & purchasing an HDD when my operational HDD dies (something that's hard to do without a machine with which to access the web).
If I create a bootable clone, then a dead operational HDD can simply be replaced by the clone (or I can simply boot from the clone externally). *Then* I can run tests on the dead HDD to see if it is re-usable, and I can source down a replacement HDD to act as the new target for cloning. I find this to be necessary because the last time I had boot errors, Toshiba support said I should reformat the drive in order to get *good* diagnostic info. I find that scary because re-estabishing my computing environment could take weeks. (I do data backups to CD right now).
My HDD is indeed 640GB. The partitions and details are captured in my screen shot of Disk Management, but unfortunately, only text files can be attached to postings. Here is a transcription of the info:
I have 4 volumes. All of them have the following attributes:
•Layout: Simple
•Type: Basic
•Fault Tolerance: No
•Overhead: 0%
The 1st volume has the following attributes:
•Volume: No name
•File System: Blank
•Status: Healthy (Active, Recovery Partition)
•Capacity: 1.46 GB
•Free Space: 1.46 GB
The 2nd volume has the following attributes:
•Volume: No name
•File System: Blank
•Status: Healthy (Primary Partition)
•Capacity: 22.37 GB
•Free Space: 22.37 GB
The 3rd volume has the following attributes:
•Volume: No name
•File System: Blank
•Status: Healthy (Primary Partition)
•Capacity: 12.83 GB
•Free Space: 12.83 GB
The 4th volume has the following attributes:
•Volume: S3A9104D007 (C:)
•File System: NTFS
•Status: Healthy (Boot, Page File, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)
•Capacity: 559.50 GB
•Free Space: 498.12 GB
Thanks.
Click the 
If I create a recoverable image rather than a bootable clone, I need a working HDD to recover to in the event that the operation HDD dies.
I'm not sure what you mean by "working HDD". You need a blank,empty HD.
I don't want to keep a spare HDD lying around just for that purpose, and neither do I want to spend time sourcing down & purchasing an HDD when my operational HDD dies (something that's hard to do without a machine with which to access the web).
I'm confused. I don't keep a spare HD but if I did it would be a blank, empty HD. I can restore my OS from yesterday's image in 10 minutes. I don't want to have a cloned HD lying around that might be months out of date. And if you are thinking of updating your clone daily then you are in for a lot of work. Daily images are no work at all because they can be scheduled. Clones can't. Also, I have the impression you are planning to clone to a USB external HD. That is very unreliable. The target HD for cloning needs to be internal. As I mentioned before, clones only give you one generation of backup. And that generation may be corrupted by a virus, etc.
Edit... I forgot you had eSATA. That's OK.
(or I can simply boot from the clone externally)
Can't do that if it is USB. Windows won't let you. But eSATA is OK
Toshiba support said I should reformat the drive in order to get *good* diagnostic info.
That comment from support is ridiculous.
Edit... Over the lifetime of a HD we might restore 100 images due to software issues for every restore due to HD failure. A clone doesn't help with the software issues.
redk9258 wrote on 12-30-2011 04:03 PM:
> Click the <<imageuploader.gif>> button to insert an image into a
> post.
I tried to edit my last post so that I can access such a button. Unfortunately, I don't see an option to edit the post, and I am guessing that it is because this is a new browser session. So here it is attached to this post.
Thanks!!
Brian_K wrote on 12-30-2011 04:58 PM:
>TonNortNuby wrote on 12-30-2011 03:39 PM:
>> If I create a recoverable image rather than a bootable clone, I
>> need a working HDD to recover to in the event that the operation
>> HDD dies.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "working HDD". You need a blank,empty
> HD.
If the HDD in the laptop fails due to a hardware failure rather than just corruption of the contents, the HDD is no longer "working" in the sense that it can't be (reasonably) used anymore, not even as a target for recovering an image. From what I've read about using nonbootable images, the idea is to recover to a working HDD, often to the HDD inside the laptopt that failed. I believe that the assumption there is that the HDD is still good, and hence it is worthwhile to recover the image to it.
>> I don't want to keep a spare HDD lying around just for that
>> purpose, and neither do I want to spend time sourcing down &
>> purchasing an HDD when my operational HDD dies (something that's
>> hard to do without a machine with which to access the web).
>
> I'm confused. I don't keep a spare HD but if I did it would be a
> blank, empty HD. I can restore my OS from yesterday's image in 10
> minutes. I don't want to have a cloned HD lying around that might be
> months out of date.
The worst case scenario is that the HDD in the laptop dies due to a hardware failure, and cannot be used as a target for recovering an image. That means I need a spare HDD which can act as a target for recovery of an image.
> And if you are thinking of updating your clone daily then you are in
> for a lot of work. Daily images are no work at all because they can
> be scheduled. Clones can't.
I've never done images or clones, but I'm planning to simply start a cloning job overnight (like defragging). All partitions will be cloned, and the clone should be bootable so that it can seamlessly replace the HDD in the laptop if it dies. I'd appreciate comments on how realistic this is.
> I mentioned before, clones only give you one generation of backup.
> And that generation may be corrupted by a virus, etc.
I realize that images give you multiple generations of backup because you can create differential backups. But I'm picturing the scenario where the HDD dies due to hardware failure and cannot serve as a target for image recovery. If I don't have a spare HDD to act as the target, I better be able to boot from the clone.
As for corruptions that are replicated in the clone, I don't see a way around that unless I start with a fresh Windows install, followed by the massive customization and reinstallation. The whole point of this cloning plan is to avoid that crippling rebuild of my environment.
>> Toshiba support said I should reformat the drive in order to get
>> *good* diagnostic info.
>
> That comment from support is ridiculous.
Well, let's just say that I had my suspicions about the sanity of it. However, I am still under warranty, so I have to do what they say if I want to be able to exchange the HDD in the event of a hardware problem (should such a problem show up in diagnostics, either theirs or mine).
> Edit... Over the lifetime of a HD we might restore 100 images due to
> software issues for every restore due to HD failure. A clone doesn't
> help with the software issues.
I understand. However, the cost of rebuilding my environment is something I am specifically trying to avoid with a bootable cloning scheme. Otherwise, I'd just create a recovery disk that gives me a virgin laptop.
TonNortNuby wrote:However, the cost of rebuilding my environment is something I am specifically trying to avoid with a bootable cloning scheme. Otherwise, I'd just create a recovery disk that gives me a virgin laptop.
TonNortNuby,
We are still waiting for your image to be approved but just a quck comment on the above statement. We aren't suggesting you have to rebuild your environment if you have a HD failure and are using images. Let's say you create images on Monday and the HD dies on Tuesday. You remove the dead HD and install a new blank HD. You boot from the Ghost CD and restore your images. Nothing complicated. No partitioning needed in advance. Now your computer is the same as it was on Monday.
That's enough from me on images. When I can see your screenshot I'll let you know how to clone the internal HD to the eSATA HD.
If you are so worried about the failure of the drive itself due to the way the laptop is handled, maybe you should look at SSD.
Brian_K wrote on 12-31-2011 04:47 AM:
> We are still waiting for your image to be approved but just a quck
> comment on the above statement.
I saw the image right away when I posted my reply on 12-31-2011 03:25 AM. But I was signed in at the time. I just logged out and checked right now, and the image shows. In case it is almost as easy to assess, I also transcribed all the details into text in my posting on 12-30-2011 03:39 PM.
> We aren't suggesting you have to rebuild your environment if you
> have a HD failure and are using images. Let's say you create images
> on Monday and the HD dies on Tuesday. You remove the dead HD and
> install a new blank HD. You boot from the Ghost CD and restore your
> images. Nothing complicated. No partitioning needed in advance. Now
> your computer is the same as it was on Monday.
That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid if possible -- needing to have a spare HDD to serve as a target for image recovery. Your scenario assumes tha I have an HDD at hand to recover the image to, be it the dead HDD, or another HDD if the dead HDD has a hardware failure.
Of course, I can always go out and purchase an HDD when my laptop HDD dies, then use the new HDD as the target for image recovery. But I'd rather have a working computer and the ability to surf the web in order to source down the new HDD, locate the retail outlet, get their phone number and hours, and google the trip.
> That's enough from me on images.
I certainly see the merits, especially if you have a number of computers/laptops and spare parts like HDDs lying around. In fact, what you describe is the popular way, and it was my original plan after initial googling.
For the worst case scenario, however, the dead HDD is no longer usable as a target for image recovery, so I would always need to have a spare HDD taking up shelf space. I'm not too keen on having a spare HDD doing nothing when the technology moves so fast, especially with the prices these days (I bit the bullet and bought one for the clone).
I would still welcome your opinion, but taking into account this (admittedly uncommon) requirement.
> When I can see your screenshot I'll let you know how to clone the
> internal HD to the eSATA HD.
It seems to be up. Thanks.
redk9258 wrote:If you are so worried about the failure of the drive itself due to the way the laptop is handled, maybe you should look at SSD.
It was an option I considered, but I would feel more comfortable waiting for the reliability info to become more consolidated. After much surfing and reading anecdotes, reports, and white papers, it seems that the jury is still out on its reliability (long term and short term) compared to HDDs.
However, the Momentus XT is partially SDD. It has some algorithm that puts the most frequently accessed files in the SDD portion. So I'm incurring the uncertainties with SDD regardless.
I know, it's not rational in light of my reasoning above. I figure that if things go drastically wrong, I may have to rebuild my environment from scratch. For any data files, I'll rely on my data backups. From the anecdotes I've read, it's worth it for the speed and responsiveness. Like an addictive drug. I guess I'll find out.
TonNortNuby,
Thanks for that screenshot. You could see it but we couldn't. Now everyone can see it. It is the order of the partitions on the HD that we need to know. The order in the rectangle.
HP have a weird setup. Dell do too. You don't have a 100 MB SRP but partition 1 is Active so it contains the booting files (Boot folder and bootmgr). So for this exercise regard partition 1 as a SRP. Even though partition 1 is labelled Recovery it is not large enough for a Win7 image. The actual image must be in partition 3 or 4. There is no File System listed for partitions 1, 3 and 4 which suggests they are HP proprietary. To sort this out can you download ptedit32.exe from...
ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_canada/tools/pq/utilities/PTEDIT32.zip
Unzip, right click ptedit32.exe and Run as Administrator. Please post a screenshot of the Symantec Partition Table Editor that is generated.
To use Ghost 15 Copy Drive....
Delete all partitions from the eSATA HD. Let's call it the new HD. You want 100% unallocated space. These are the Options for using Ghost...
http://community.norton.com/t5/Other-Norton-Products/Ghost-15-options-for-recovery/td-p/218202
The ones relevant to you are...
For Copy Drive if a SRP is present
For the SRP
Check source for file system errors
Check destination for file system errors
Set drive active (for booting OS)
DON'T SELECT Disable SmartSector copying
DON'T SELECT Ignore bad sectors during copy
Copy MBR
Destination partition type : Primary
Drive letter : None
For Win7
Check source for file system errors
Check destination for file system errors
Don't Resize drive to fill unallocated space
DON'T SELECT Disable SmartSector copying
DON'T SELECT Ignore bad sectors during copy
Destination partition type : Primary
Drive letter : None
Do Copy Drive one partition at a time. Your partition 1 is regarded as a SRP so use the SRP options. Use the Win 7 options for the remaining three partitions.
Now for the fine tuning. Partitions 1, 3 and 4 never change so you don't need to repeat the Copy process to the new HD. Leave them alone. Win7 does change so whenever you want to Copy Win7 you must delete the Win7 partition on the new HD before your do Copy Drive. If you don't delete the Win7 partition on the new HD before the Copy everything will seem to copy OK but Win 7 on the new HD will not load into Windows.
After you have done the copy you need to test the new HD. The following is essential. You must disconnect the power and data cables from the old HD before you boot from the new HD. If you fail to do this and Win7 on the new HD sees the Win7 partition on the old HD on its first boot you are in trouble. Win 7 on the new HD will not load into Windows on this or subsequent occasions. You will have to delete Win7 on the new HD and repeat the Copy Drive.
Any questions?
TonNortNuby wrote:
so I would always need to have a spare HDD taking up shelf space.
Either way you will have a spare HD taking up shelf space. I regard your Copy Drive HD as a HD taking up shelf space. By the time your old HD dies in 5 years time your Copy Drive HD will be old technology too. Usually (but not always) HDs die slowly. You get SMART warnings or notice bad sectors. You have days to weeks warning to buy a new HD.
It's a Toshiba laptop, but it sure looks like a HP the way it's setup with all the extra partitions.
I assume one of the big ones is the recovery partition and the other one is some kind of quickboot media direct thingie.
But note the replacement drive is smaller, I'm not sure if you can specify a partition copy into a smaller partition.
Since the replacement drive has better performance and there is a question about a possible problem with the existing drive I think the drives sould be switched and the older one can become the one sitting on the shelf.
Dave
Dave,
I must be losing it. I don't know where HP came from. I'd forgotten that the new HD is smaller than the internal HD. After I've seen ptedit32.exe results I'll post admended instructions.
Loosing it is better than never having it.
Just thinking out loud. The old HD is 596.2 GiB and the new HD is 465.7 GiB. So there is a 130.5 GiB difference. I think the C: drive will need to be resized at least 130.5 GiB smaller. That is at least 133,632 MiB smaller.
Or in other terms, 559.5-130.5=429 GiB. Which is 439,296 MiB. I'd aim to resize the C: drive to 438,000 MiB as with the unknown File Systems in partitions 3 and 4 we don't know if they will fit into a smaller space.
Please check my calculations.
TonNortNuby,
Now my brain is back in gear. You want the 500 GB HD internally so you will have a spare 640 GB HD whether you like it or not. Your Copy Drive method will be fine but I'd augment it with images.
Thanks, Brian & Dave. I've uploaded the image of the Partition Table.
Uh, I'm a bit confused by some of the details of the posts, so please bear with me.
I googled Norton's Copy Drive, and it isn't absolutely clear that it creates a bootable clone rather than a recoverable image. There are some indications that it does, but can you please confirm? I suspect that the bootability depends on properly Copy-Drive-ing all the partitions.
I think I haven't properly described the spare HDD thing, or I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how cloning & imaging work. According to my understanding, if I create a recoverable image, I need 3 HDDs; if I create a bootable clone, I need two HDDs.
For the recoverable image scenario, I will have (1) my operational HDD in the laptop, (2) the imaging target HDD, and (3) the spare HDD that I recover to if my operational HDD has hardware problems.
For the bootable clone scenario, I will just have (1) my operational HDD and (2) the clone HDD. If the operational HDD has a failure, I can boot from the clone, run tests on the failed operational HDD, and surf the web to find out how (and what the results mean). If it's still good, I simply clone back to it. If it isn't good, I have one usable HDD (the clone that I'm running off of) and I use the web to source down & acquire a new HDD. Then I will have two HDDs again, and I will use the better one for my operational HDD.
Brian, are your instructions for Copy Drive for creating a bootable clone? I don't actually have Ghost yet, and I was wondering if it will be obvious how to resize C-drive when I get to the relevant part of the process.
Thanks!
